EMtriX

To Pete, Techland And All Btz Fans - One Flare At A Time

Recommended Posts

Duping is not a problem

 

It is, actually.

 

It can be spun any way you want, but duping is cheating. You either collect and earn your materials normally, or you infinitely duplicate them to gain an advantage.

 

If players don't want to be labeled as cheaters, all they have to do is not play PVP with duped inventories. Who cares what people do in their single-player games? But they choose to do so anyway, and then want to avoid the stigma against them. Can't have it both ways.

 

And that "none of my business" is ... sorry... but i have to ... this is just stupid.

 

This is a common meme.

 

How can you talk about balance when you are not playing as a human in 1v1 ? What were you thinking ? You have to play both sides to tell something, you are just ignorant...

 

Assuming I've never played 1 Vs. 1 as the Human in the ~1.5 years I've owned this game is just flat-out silly. :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I'll bite.

 

From the perspective of a human player consistently playing against the best hunters 1v1 on Xbox, the one flare is ridiculous for 1v1 scenarios. The only time I throw them is if my light is disabled, or I'm fighting a snaking hunter, which counters his fast tackles wonderfully. Other than that, I'm all light.

 

With that being said, I'm being punished for all the cucks that rapid fire LT, and can't have a decent fight with most of my friends anymore. I don't have as much of an issue with quick join hunters, because most of them are still bad, but not being able to play with the people I choose to for my own thrill pretty much turns me away from the game.

 

I think a better solution would be to bring back before the most recent patch just for 1v1, or maybe even have a faster cool down, so they still can't be thrown rapidly from duped inventories; which, by the way, have absolutely no impact for PvP. In vanilla, it was broken, but now literally everything has a cool down, so how many of something a human has is pretty much irrelevant. Just give a couple hundred flares, and I guarantee that all of you would chupacabra about the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With that being said, I'm being punished for all the cucks that rapid fire LT

 

And you know what? I 100% agree with this. It's honestly silly that rather than ban the people bringing 800,000 Zaid's Flares into a match, the choice has been to negatively affect all Humans' ability to use Flares. I've said it before: the people most harmed by this are the legitimate players, not the cheaters.

 

 

so they still can't be thrown rapidly from duped inventories; which, by the way, have absolutely no impact for PvP. In vanilla, it was broken, but now literally everything has a cool down, so how many of something a human has is pretty much irrelevant. Just give a couple hundred flares, and I guarantee that all of you would chupacabra about the same thing.

 

But I'll say this again, too: a duped inventory is quite literally the definition of cheating. I understand the frustration over the nerfs, but by no means should it give players an excuse to cheat.

 

Honestly, I can't think of another game where creating an inventory of infinite anything, and then bringing it into a PVP setting in which only one side benefits, is acceptable. It's akin to having infinite claymores in CoD, or infinite Heavy Ammo in Destiny. Imagine playing Dark Souls PVP, and the guy on the other side of the Fight Club has infinite Estus Flasks. Or infinite spells. Unbeatable? No. But an unfair advantage? Absolutely.

 

I'm going to post something I said in an earlier thread that seemed to go over well:

 

----

 

Airstrikes, Zaid's Flares, Camo Potions, Night Hunter Potions, etc. are all items that are difficult to craft and/or items that are stronger than others simply because of their difficulty to acquire/craft. To have "infinite" of these items defeats the purpose of their rarity and creates imbalance. If a player wants to farm for several hours for plants? Then they can use multiple Camo potions per match. If they want to use Zaid's Flares, they need to give up materials that would otherwise be used to create Medkits.

 

This is balance. Players can't have "everything" unless they put a ridiculous amount of time into the game, and they need to work hard for what they want. Much like the Night Hunter having to play many, many matches to acquire all of his skills, Humans should need to invest time and energy into the game if they want to use 100+ Zaid's Flares per match, or drink a Night Hunter Potion twice per life, or heal 32 times in a single match. All of which I've experienced, and moreso, because there are no consequences to using items.

 

As a Night Hunter, I choose to reset myself to gain new skills. Do I need UV Heal to win? No, but it's a great skill and I want it. So I extend my playtime to acquire something new and powerful. Humans do not need to make that choice with Duping.

 

And if they don't want to do that? Like Night Hunters, they need to find ways around not having the strongest items/weapons available at all times.

 

If Humans could not cheat, maybe some of the Nerfs/Buffs wouldn't have been implemented. Players wouldn't throw down hundreds of Flares in a match if they honestly had to work to acquire them. This could be a very, very different game from what we're playing now. But the sad reality is that duping is now a part of PVP that the developers need to account for when implementing items and gameplay. It's the clear understanding that a majority of Human players will be cheating that causes cooldown nerfs, damage nerfs, and other punishments that hurt legitimate players more than they do the cheaters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And you know what? I 100% agree with this. It's honestly silly that rather than ban the people bringing 800,000 Zaid's Flares into a match, the choice has been to negatively affect all Humans' ability to use Flares. I've said it before: the people most harmed by this are the legitimate players, not the cheaters.

 

 

 

But I'll say this again, too: a duped inventory is quite literally the definition of cheating. I understand the frustration over the nerfs, but by no means should it give players an excuse to cheat.

 

Honestly, I can't think of another game where creating an inventory of infinite anything, and then bringing it into a PVP setting in which only one side benefits, is acceptable. It's akin to having infinite claymores in CoD, or infinite Heavy Ammo in Destiny. Imagine playing Dark Souls PVP, and the guy on the other side of the Fight Club has infinite Estus Flasks. Or infinite spells. Unbeatable? No. But an unfair advantage? Absolutely.

 

I'm going to post something I said in an earlier thread that seemed to go over well:

 

----

 

Airstrikes, Zaid's Flares, Camo Potions, Night Hunter Potions, etc. are all items that are difficult to craft and/or items that are stronger than others simply because of their difficulty to acquire/craft. To have "infinite" of these items defeats the purpose of their rarity and creates imbalance. If a player wants to farm for several hours for plants? Then they can use multiple Camo potions per match. If they want to use Zaid's Flares, they need to give up materials that would otherwise be used to create Medkits.

 

This is balance. Players can't have "everything" unless they put a ridiculous amount of time into the game, and they need to work hard for what they want. Much like the Night Hunter having to play many, many matches to acquire all of his skills, Humans should need to invest time and energy into the game if they want to use 100+ Zaid's Flares per match, or drink a Night Hunter Potion twice per life, or heal 32 times in a single match. All of which I've experienced, and moreso, because there are no consequences to using items.

 

As a Night Hunter, I choose to reset myself to gain new skills. Do I need UV Heal to win? No, but it's a great skill and I want it. So I extend my playtime to acquire something new and powerful. Humans do not need to make that choice with Duping.

 

And if they don't want to do that? Like Night Hunters, they need to find ways around not having the strongest items/weapons available at all times.

 

If Humans could not cheat, maybe some of the Nerfs/Buffs wouldn't have been implemented. Players wouldn't throw down hundreds of Flares in a match if they honestly had to work to acquire them. This could be a very, very different game from what we're playing now. But the sad reality is that duping is now a part of PVP that the developers need to account for when implementing items and gameplay. It's the clear understanding that a majority of Human players will be cheating that causes cooldown nerfs, damage nerfs, and other punishments that hurt legitimate players more than they do the cheaters.

I appreciate the modesty, most people here aren't capable of that. I certainly don't condone duping, I did it after a couple of months of playing long after vanilla existed, but you're not wrong either, The solution I've proposed would keep that in check. However, there's more to it than just that, and this is one of the only arguments I see Hunters with in this nonsensical patch war. We still have teleporting/flying bombers, latency issues (which may not see a fix), and a handicap system that makes most of the game a wild card.

Edited by Chi1d0fBodom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate the modesty, most people here aren't capable of that. I certainly don't condone duping, I did it after a couple of months of playing long after vanilla existed, but you're not wrong either, The solution I've proposed would keep that in check. However, there's more to it than just that, and this is one of the only arguments I see Hunters with in this nonsensical patch war. We still have teleporting/flying bombers, latency issues (which may not see a fix), and a handicap system that makes most of the game a wild card.

 

No worries! And I agree - Horde A.I. is donked up in more ways than one, and while I'm not actually against the handicap system on either side of the spectrum, I can understand why others would be. I had the opportunity to watch one of my matches from both my view and the view of the Human I was playing the other day, and the difference between what we see is very noticeable.

 

That doesn't mean I don't still love this mode, though. It can be frustrating sometimes, but it's no more frustrating than an average CoD match. :wacko:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

No worries! And I agree - Horde A.I. is donked up in more ways than one, and while I'm not actually against the handicap system on either side of the spectrum, I can understand why others would be. I had the opportunity to watch one of my matches from both my view and the view of the Human I was playing the other day, and the difference between what we see is very noticeable.

 

That doesn't mean I don't still love this mode, though. It can be frustrating sometimes, but it's no more frustrating than an average CoD match. :wacko:[/quote

 

Oh, absolutely. I'll love BtZ for a long time, and since the devs will support it for another year or so, and that they've got open ears to the players, I can see things getting sorted out sooner or later. And of course, a lot of things we've mentioned affect about 95% of quick join matches hardly at all (more so for humans, it's a bit worse for the hunter), but can absolutely bust matches at the highest level of play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 flare against 4 spits and fast recharge??? I don't know what you play but in a 1v1 the spit recharge is long. For it to be fast you play 4v1 which now gives you 4 flares. It's not out fault if humans don't work together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But I'll say this again, too: a duped inventory is quite literally the definition of cheating. I understand the frustration over the nerfs, but by no means should it give players an excuse to cheat.

 

It is, but it is also the last thing that keeps PvP alive, scavenging time = no invasion time = less players or not at all. Worse than that are the modded items sneaked into PvP that weren't never addressed like auto crossbow or smoke grenades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is, but it is also the last thing that keeps PvP alive, scavenging time = no invasion time = less players or not at all. Worse than that are the modded items sneaked into PvP that weren't never addressed like auto crossbow or smoke grenades.

 

We don't want people to feel like they have to scavenge in order to keep playing BTZ.  Survivors are gifted 1 medkit and 2 flares each respawn during BTZ to help address this.  Weapon mods are a PC issue.  People are always going to look for ways to mod the game on PC.  This affects every game on PC.  In my experience, it is very rare to see them used in VAC secure games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is, but it is also the last thing that keeps PvP alive, scavenging time = no invasion time = less players or not at all.

 

I can't stress this enough: If those players really don't have the patience to make the items they're carrying, they shouldn't be carrying them. And if the game's too tough for them, cheating is not an acceptable solution. These are players who are too scared to take a Horde Spit if they don't have infinite Camo/NH Potions in their magic bag, and they don't belong in the high-end PVP environment.

 

We don't want people to feel like they have to scavenge in order to keep playing BTZ.  Survivors are gifted 1 medkit and 2 flares each respawn during BTZ to help address this.

 

A wild Pete appears!

 

But seriously, this is what I'm talking about. There's even an in-game way to stave off the need to cheat, and players are still too afraid to play normally? It's ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't stress this enough: If those players really don't have the patience to make the items they're carrying, they shouldn't be carrying them. And if the game's too tough for them, cheating is not an acceptable solution. These are players who are too scared to take a Horde Spit if they don't have infinite Camo/NH Potions in their magic bag, and they don't belong in the high-end PVP environment.

 

 

A wild Pete appears!

 

But seriously, this is what I'm talking about. There's even an in-game way to stave off the need to cheat, and players are still too afraid to play normally? It's ridiculous.

 

That's just a glitch in the matrix: the game is obviously "duping" and the developers are complicit in the crime. I also heard a wild rumor that developers preside over infinite inventories and load whatever they want, whenever they want just to do you a personal favor.

 

So agreed, this is absolutely ridiculous and warrants serious action. Any dev can go out there, whenever they want, and make all hunters get wrecked! They even hack their hunters and make survivors wrecked, as well as nerfing and buffing where they see fit, without our consent. 

 

Let's all restore balancing justice b4 it's too late.  :lol: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's just a glitch in the matrix: the game is obviously "duping" and the developers are complicit in the crime. I also heard a wild rumor that developers preside over infinite inventories and load whatever they want, whenever they want just to do you a personal favor.

 

So agreed, this is absolutely ridiculous and warrants serious action. Any dev can go out there, whenever they want, and make all hunters get wrecked! They even hack their hunters and make survivors wrecked, as well as nerfing and buffing where they see fit, without our consent.

 

Let's all restore balancing justice b4 it's too late. :lol:

No one cares about false/negative rumors that aren't from a credible source. This contributes nothing to the discussion and only further misconstrues the topic at hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one cares about false/negative rumors that aren't from a credible source. This contributes nothing to the discussion and only further misconstrues the topic at hand.

 

I thought this impossible with such obvious irony in my above post, but you actually swallowed the bait hook, line, and sinker. :D

 

The above was a joke parodying game play and hysterical discourse this game mode generates for adults. If you have trouble understanding that kind of thing ask your parents/guardian/teacher to explain it to you. 

 

Also, you're wrong in that it does contribute to the forum and provides folks with information: once again Jcks lives up to their signature while hysteria of ranting about duping all day is exposed for what it is to folks like me: a bad joke at best, spam and insulting at worst.

 

And I am being generous concerning the frequency of both your pretense to bossing folks around and Catnip's fetish for duping related rants. It serves the forum to communicate that we are all aware of the duping rant, and that it would save folks time and energy to not have to read the same old thing again and again, every time I log in here. We get it: dupers are bad, hmmkay? Techland dupes to prevent scavenging, so Techland bad, duh!  :rolleyes: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought this impossible with such obvious irony in my above post, but you actually swallowed the bait hook, line, and sinker. :D

 

The above was a joke parodying game play and hysterical discourse this game mode generates for adults. If you have trouble understanding that kind of thing ask your parents/guardian/teacher to explain it to you. 

 

Also, you're wrong in that it does contribute to the forum and provides folks with information: once again Jcks lives up to their signature while hysteria of ranting about duping all day is exposed for what it is to folks like me: a bad joke at best, spam and insulting at worst.

 

And I am being generous concerning the frequency of both your pretense to bossing folks around and Catnip's fetish for duping related rants. It serves the forum to communicate that we are all aware of the duping rant, and that it would save folks time and energy to not have to read the same old thing again and again, every time I log in here. We get it: dupers are bad, hmmkay? Techland dupes to prevent scavenging, so Techland bad, duh!  :rolleyes:

 

> implies previous post was a joke/not serious

> says there's relevant information in said joke

 

So are you admitting to providing false information yet again?

 

Pete just said they don't want people to feel as if duping is a necessary part of BtZ and yet again you accuse devs of duping themselves without any credible source of information. It's like you hold a grudge against them for previous patches or something.

Edited by jcks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don't want people to feel like they have to scavenge in order to keep playing BTZ.  Survivors are gifted 1 medkit and 2 flares each respawn during BTZ to help address this.  Weapon mods are a PC issue.  People are always going to look for ways to mod the game on PC.  This affects every game on PC.  In my experience, it is very rare to see them used in VAC secure games.

 

The amount of flares and medkits is not sufficient and those are just normal flares, you should give Zaid flares too if they are in equipment. You could deal with weapon mods with uniform properties, You already made that kind of thing when it comes to hunter damage. Let for e.g. all one handed weapons damage be 60+bit of damage from weapon mods, and all goons have 600HP, Uniform properties would flat every weapon properties (or selected ones), no matter if it is gold or not into same kind as other ones, uniform reload time could deal with auto crossbow, you could also implement something like highpass and lowpass properties, so weapon properties would be limited if they exceed allowed values.

 

After flare nerf more people are using gold flares, uniforming burning time for all flares during invasion would be good idea, make all flares burn like zaid's flares.

 

 

As for flare nerf in 1vs1, just scale the flare cost (like the damage in 3,4vs1) in a way that throwing flare will take 99% of the indicator, throwing a flare in other modes will cause instant cooldown as flare cost will be greater.

 

I don't think that team will do any more than tweaking mere details, you have propably more work with other new products.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't stress this enough: If those players really don't have the patience to make the items they're carrying, they shouldn't be carrying them. And if the game's too tough for them, cheating is not an acceptable solution. These are players who are too scared to take a Horde Spit if they don't have infinite Camo/NH Potions in their magic bag, and they don't belong in the high-end PVP environment.

 

Assuming that this game life right now is artificially supported by duped items means, that you shouldn't playing it anymore as it doesn't exists in your world. You're creating a paradox, you're playing a game of dupers and yet you wan't to get rid of them, which means if you exile them away, you would have nobody to play with (except 11 years old kids who doesn't know much about that - yep, there are kids playing this game), yet you wan't to play and have dupers away, a perfect term for visciuos circle.

 

You should also take into consideration, that i'm playing 95% of time as NH, humans on normal mode with duped items are annoying (noobs or desperado), i'll give you that much, humans on hard without duped items are boringly easy and with the flare nerf my feelings are in discord when i blow humans flare and he can't do anything (no challenge at all). I was adapted to that challenge.

 

TIP of DAY: Make sure that your opponnent is 12 or below, high propability of him being not duped player :)

Edited by sanjyuubi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assuming that this game life right now is artificially supported by duped items means, that you shouldn't playing it anymore as it doesn't exists in your world. You're creating a paradox, you're playing a game of dupers and yet you wan't to get rid of them, which means if you exile them away, you would have nobody to play with (except 11 years old kids who doesn't know much about that - yep, there are kids playing this game), yet you wan't to play and have dupers away, a perfect term for visciuos circle.

 

Agreed. I understand Doc's argument, only find that it is somewhat removed from the realities of actual game play where your stated assumption does hold, Sanjyuubi.

 

I tried some games yesterday as survivor on different difficulty settings and even on normal mode to see if things are really that hopeless. There simply is no reply for folks without golden flares and special cooldowns when their light runs out, they get tackle stuck with UV spit, the only flare is thrown and Hunter comes in Gp + blows flare.

 

You're just staring at 2 cooldowns for flares AND lamp as sitting Duck with predictable outcome that is frequent enough to decide games. Since UV mechanic in general is integral to this game mode, nerfing the flare and expecting survivors to be sitting ducks for half an hour disables a core mechanism of the game mode: to counter hunter's speed/agility with light and some brains. 

 

Without the light, indeed "Dying Light", lol but also dysfunctional game mode 1v1. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assuming that this game life right now is artificially supported by duped items means, that you shouldn't playing it anymore as it doesn't exists in your world. You're creating a paradox, you're playing a game of dupers and yet you wan't to get rid of them, which means if you exile them away, you would have nobody to play with (except 11 years old kids who doesn't know much about that - yep, there are kids playing this game), yet you wan't to play and have dupers away, a perfect term for visciuos circle.

 

You should also take into consideration, that i'm playing 95% of time as NH, humans on normal mode with duped items are annoying (noobs or desperado), i'll give you that much, humans on hard without duped items are boringly easy and with the flare nerf my feelings are in discord when i blow humans flare and he can't do anything (no challenge at all). I was adapted to that challenge.

 

TIP of DAY: Make sure that your opponnent is 12 or below, high propability of him being not duped player :)

This goes both ways. If survivors want to continue bringing duped items into a pvp setting then hunters will get tired of playing. No hunters = no invasions.

 

You need not look any further than this forum to see the history of frustrated hunter players who have quit the game for this reason and more.

Edited by jcks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vezocams, a great survivor, has been doing a "limited items" challenge. He is only putting in his inventory any weapon setup along with 10 medkits, 20 zaids flares, 5 boosters, grappling hook, and uv flashlight. He is still able to beat hunters with a couple deaths. This is also on console, which I feel is harder as a hunter than PC.

 

I think this would be a happy median to allowing survivora to dupe thier items and continue playing while keeping the hunters entertained knowing they can have a chance against higher end humans.

 

Although I'm sure this is never going to happen, it's nice to see humans still adding challenges for themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vezocams, a great survivor, has been doing a "limited items" challenge. He is only putting in his inventory any weapon setup along with 10 medkits, 20 zaids flares, 5 boosters, grappling hook, and uv flashlight. He is still able to beat hunters with a couple deaths. This is also on console, which I feel is harder as a hunter than PC.

 

I think this would be a happy median to allowing survivora to dupe thier items and continue playing while keeping the hunters entertained knowing they can have a chance against higher end humans.

 

Although I'm sure this is never going to happen, it's nice to see humans still adding challenges for themselves.

 

This limiting items isn't that challenging, it's still much more than Techland gives you, he should try 5 medkits, and 10 normal flares, no boosters, this is the way Techland see (1 medkit, 2 flares per spawn).

This goes both ways. If survivors want to continue bringing duped items into a pvp setting then hunters will get tired of playing. No hunters = no invasions.

 

You need not look any further than this forum to see the history of frustrated hunter players who have quit the game for this reason and more.

 

Duping doesn't exists from yesterday (9 month ago having stack of zaids flares and medkits was something normal). I'm so used to play with dupers, that it doesn't concern me much and dupers are only pain when playing normal mode.

 

There are also numerous posts about Hunter being OP, so it goes for both ways. People will complain even if you get rid of duping.

 

 

The way to stop dupers might be fixed inventory for invasions (but that will separate invasion from main game too much) and placing additional medkits and flares in safe zones, so you have visit them if you want more stuff.

Edited by sanjyuubi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I myself don't have too much of an issue with the duped inventories either. I have more of an issue with the infinite dodge spam by survivors and latency for the night hunter. I have been close enough to humans to ground pound only to hit the ground and watch them dodge away, ready the weapon annnnnnnnnnd dead hunter, good bye nest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying duping just started I'm saying it's been a continual problem along with balance issues that has dwindled the hunter player base down to what we have currently today.

 

It's too late to expect survivors to play without duped inventories because they've been playing that way for so long with little penalty. It's become the norm when it wasn't supposed to be and there have been several balance changes in direct response to duped inventories which makes things harder for both new and legitimate players.

 

If players are having legitimate issues of the hunter being too OP then taking duped inventories into a PvP setting was not the way to fix those issues (neither does it justify duping). By using duped inventories the focus of balance changes became centered on curbing the use of such tactics instead of focusing on the real issues such as what makes the hunter so op and what needs to be turned down to make him more manageable.

 

The argument that duping is supporting this mode is an excuse used by players who want an out from every situation all the time (infinite healing, unlimited flare defense, continuous stat buffs, infinite horde negation). Playing the mode as intended seems like a totally different game because no one has been playing it right from the beginning and hunter players have mainly been the ones to suffer.

Edited by jcks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now