EMtriX

To Pete, Techland And All Btz Fans - One Flare At A Time

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Hi all, first i would like to thank you Techland for delivering the greatest multiplayer experience i ever had, 1v1 was my addiction for almost a year now. I think it was the only balanced mode, 2,3,4 vs 1 was not balanced in theory. In practice humans are not covering each other all the time, that's why people think 2,3,4 vs 1 was balanced. I also play sometimes as a hunter and flare spam is real in 2,3,4 vs 1. never in 1v1. Decision to give human 1 flare at a time is great for 2,3,4 humans vs hunter. But it completely destroys balance in 1v1. I know that there are not too many people who like to play 1v1 with top hunters so you will probably won't listen to me. I am dying breed and there are maybe 5 % players playing 1v1. I woul like to encourage all of you guys  to vote if you want to bring back old cooldowns for falres but only in 1v1. If the game can recognize when other players are joining and increase the ratio of recharging spits on the fly, why it can't allow for 2 flares in 1v1 ? If one flare at a time is here to stay in 1v1 i would like to say goodbye to all my hunter and human friends, it was a f.cking great time to play with you guys, sweet times.

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Angry Video Game Nerd would say: "What were they thinking"? I remember clearly how devs objected to raise the power of the Night Hunter, but it looks like nerfing human is quite fine. Really? The damage scaling in 3,4vs1 was ok or at least neutral in my book, but one flare at a time made me quite speechless. I hope it's just experiments in shadows.

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Agreed. 1v1 went from bad, as illustrated in the Ninja thread of late, to broken.

 

And no, I don't think anybody was thinking.

 

Knee jerk reaction it would seem as this pushes survivors to stop playing altogether and you can't blame them.

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Pete said himself that 1vs1 was favoring hunter. That makes me wonder, what the hell happened in the studio? Maybe they mistakenly nerfed flares for all modes instead of 3,4vs1 and will be fixed, that is just wild guess (i'm giving you excuse Techland to save a face :) )

Edited by sanjyuubi

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Spinoza is probably one of the best night hunters out there and he lost to sokojik in a 1v1 post nerf with 5 lives remaining. It's still possible to win, people. Just adapt.

this is not a good approach, players should stand together and say 1 flare, but only in 2,3,4 v 1, even if techland nerfed more things, there still would be a chance to win. Some good guy won with another good guy doesn't mean he would wind again, maybe spinoza would win next time because he will adapt better to new nerf. One match doesn't mean anything. I played yesterday post nerf with hunter rank hunter and won with 5 lives left too...This is like saying that one guy in cs go has pistol and other guy has ak47... there is still a chance that guy with pistol will win xD. It breaks the balance in 1v1. Human now have to work harder than hunter even more. Balance is when both sides are working equally hard. Sorry for my english, this is not my native language. 

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Spinoza is probably one of the best night hunters out there and he lost to sokojik in a 1v1 post nerf with 5 lives remaining. It's still possible to win, people. Just adapt.

 

 

I was always the hunter guy looking into what should be tweaked to make hunter play more swift, fluent and almighty, but now i'm just pity the disabled Crane.

 

As far as i remember or at least when i played against him last time, he was on normal mode which is a pain alone for hunter. I'm not saying that he plays bad, but you can't assume that everybody will unify same skills and tactics, that's just not how variety works. Some people are good in direct charge at the hunter, some are good in sneaking in the shadows between nests, some are good at both.

Edited by sanjyuubi

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Hi all, first i would like to thank you Techland for delivering the greatest multiplayer experience i ever had, 1v1 was my addiction for almost a year now. I think it was the only balanced mode, 2,3,4 vs 1 was not balanced in theory. In practice humans are not covering each other all the time, that's why people think 2,3,4 vs 1 was balanced. I also play sometimes as a hunter and flare spam is real in 2,3,4 vs 1. never in 1v1. Decision to give human 1 flare at a time is great for 2,3,4 humans vs hunter. But it completely destroys balance in 1v1. I know that there are not too many people who like to play 1v1 with top hunters so you will probably won't listen to me. I am dying breed and there are maybe 5 % players playing 1v1. I woul like to encourage all of you guys  to vote if you want to bring back old cooldowns for falres but only in 1v1. If the game can recognize when other players are joining and increase the ratio of recharging spits on the fly, why it can't allow for 2 flares in 1v1 ? If one flare at a time is here to stay in 1v1 i would like to say goodbye to all my hunter and human friends, it was a f.cking great time to play with you guys, sweet times.

Personally I think the devs don't know how to balance the game so they decide to just nerf humans to absolute s h i t

Edited by b1sh0p

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Agreed with the sentiment that enough is enough. That said, I loved the expansion of Feb 2016, which gave the game a whole new dimension. This isn't just about flares though.
 
But since April 2016, there seems to be a change in design philosophy regarding character ability in the game mode, with the following measures implemented:
 
- Melee damage to Nests and Hunter adjusted/re-tuned
- Bullet damage to Nests and Hunter reduced
- Difficulty of "Hard Nests" increased across all variation (1v1,2v1,3v1,4v1 -more defenders,goons,extra brood)
- Grappling hook cooldown cost increased
- Outside damage mitigated while in PVP grab states (tackle, dropkick, pounce etc.)
- DFA commitment.  Survivors cannot quick roll out of a DFA attempt.
- Fixed an issue where Survivors could use the 'forward roll' skill to negate fall damage from a Tackle
- AOE knockdown on successful tackle  (Hunter)
- Hunter inherits more velocity when releasing tendrils
- Hunter can transition directly from tendrils to sprint 
- Hunter can hold tackle input to trigger a successful tackle when available
- UV Light: Added a start-up cost for U.V. Flashlight.  Flicking your U.V. Light on and off repeatedly will drain it quicker than keeping it on.
- Potions: Reduced the amount of "speed buff" and "damage mitigation buff" when using potions in BTZ.
 
To the argument "what you folks complaining about, it's just a flare... just get used to it", a reply is: the flare is the straw that broke the camel's back. This change of restricting flare use, when put into context of the changes of the past months, some of which were justified to help hunters win, be that predator we all want, and not permanently be hunted...  Yet, all of these measures taken together are excessive not from some balancing standpoint, but by breaking the game for survivors in sucking out all the fun AND taking the fun out of my wins as hunter because in this case, I can choose to either engage beginning survivors without a whiff of a chance, or engage cheaters.
 
Easy wins as hunter; I'll pass as that robs meaning from every game of strategy.
 
The most basic lesson of anybody with some interest for strategy is: if the game is rigged against you, it is unwise to play.

 

To the hunters happy with these measures: I am open to new facts or being shown games where survivors consistently, not isolated lucky games with the right nest spawning sequence and ideal player spawn locations, defeat at least mid level hunters or go 50-50 against high level ones. And for some realism have them protect one or two beginners. 

 

Melee damage of 2 handed weapons was decreased again for 3v1, 4v1 scenarios. That's slapping everybody in the face who put time into learning to wield them. Twice now. From this context, it is clear that Techland wants babies to beat veteran players. :lol:Personally, not interested if situation remains like this. They modded their game beyond recognition of the thing I bought, classic mistake of making things too complicated b4 fixing basic things (hunter pouncing and tackling through every second wall, hits and ground pounds not registering etc.) and as survivor I am tired of having sand thrown into the machine of what was once a favorite game and an awesome game world to move around in. Too annoying for me to want to convert buddies to get into it. And too lazy/uninterested to cheat seriously for undeserved wins. :rolleyes:

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Flares are one of the worst things to me as a hunter. You would finally get a UV spit and they throw a triangle of flares to dodge between. I don't play much 1v1 because I feel it's always been unbalanced but I do agree that 1 flare sucks for you survivors. I have stuck humans with UV, ground pounded them and flare then simply wait for stamina to go up. Some humans will just stop and wait for pounce now because there is NOTHING they can do. In my opinion tho hunter have a lot of punishable attacks whereas humans have very little. I do enjoy this because it makes humans think BUT now safe zones and water holes are being rushed to hide in.

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It's not just flare, it's the whole flare, it's where the line was crossed.

 

Right. Having already made my case that playing survivor is less and less fun due to that huge list of nerfs since April, the line is crossed for me by Techland simply continuing the trend. Doesn't matter if flare or something else: the general trend matters. I've woken up numerous times now to a game world where - yet again - some ability, skill, freedom of movement was amputated. After a few dozen patches it is clear that the game's strategic qualities and survivor fun are not high priorities on Techland's agenda.

 

Dying Light = Dying Joy

 

Survivors uninformed of the game mode's history are getting a bad deal. You have to be either addicted to the game play or stupid to think that things will stay fun for survivors that don't have thousands of hours to sink into a game, given this trend.

 

Instead, lucky and therefore undeserved wins for every hunter, especially beginners, are apparently a higher priority. And this is where "a line is crossed", since I made the community aware of the effect of the April nerfs on playing experience of survivors and the trend continues. Therefore, I stop recommending the game as fun pursuit of people that enjoy strategy, open world zombie etc. and stop regular play. It is easy to think: "Ok, they violated my line of fun again, but since everything else is harmless, I'll just move my line a little and pretend that everything is perfect again and nothing happened."

 

Many players will swallow whatever Devs or gaming studios dish out, and revise their positions in function of what the studio decides. But people choosing this easy way and agreeing to be corporate tools, is not just embarrassing for the person in all of us, it is bad for business in games and beyond. People should stand by their preferences instead of cowardly grovelling to whatever studio says or when some Dev snaps their fingers. If people move their line that easily, and there are many posters, veterans to these forums or not, that do move their lines that easily... then my reply is: You never had a line in the first place and your words/assessments/opinions concerning the game are less convincing, because you allow yourself the easy way out to reason whatever, if some dev/studio says so. People become advertising stooges instead of standing by the opinions and limits that make them genuine persons, that make our games better games, and our lives more fully lived. It has always been easy to be a coward and the internet rewards the loudest cowards these days, but I digress.

 

 

Flares are one of the worst things to me as a hunter. You would finally get a UV spit and they throw a triangle of flares to dodge between. I don't play much 1v1 because I feel it's always been unbalanced but I do agree that 1 flare sucks for you survivors. I have stuck humans with UV, ground pounded them and flare then simply wait for stamina to go up. Some humans will just stop and wait for pounce now because there is NOTHING they can do. In my opinion tho hunter have a lot of punishable attacks whereas humans have very little. I do enjoy this because it makes humans think BUT now safe zones and water holes are being rushed to hide in.

 

I played hunter last year before all the buffs and survivor nerfs and always found weak areas in seas of flares that allowed a pounce. Now, as you say, humans will just stand around and "ok, just pounce me already"- which is not only unfair, but a sign that strategic quality of the game is being lost: a good strategic game allows for move-counter-move-counter etc. and shouldn't prematurely lead to a situation where one side feels that they have no reply. That marks low strategic quality of a game. 

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I agree that it takes strategy out of the mix. That's never a good thing but you have to look at the overall points of techland reguardless of our opinions. Trust me when I say I'm on your side being a super nerd and playing hours and hours but techland sees it like all other big developers. If the game is hard then you have your small group of elite players stay and few new players come in. This is a revanue loss and that is, unfortunatly, a bigger concern for corperate greed than the satisfaction of the dedicared fan base. I would love this game to be focus on the BtZ aspect rather than the campaign to be honest.

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Survivors uninformed of the game mode's history are getting a bad deal. You have to be either addicted to the game play or stupid to think that things will stay fun for survivors that don't have thousands of hours to sink into a game, given this trend.

 

The game's been out for a year and a half already. Are we really expecting a magical influx of new players?

 

 

Now, as you say, humans will just stand around and "ok, just pounce me already"- which is not only unfair, but a sign that strategic quality of the game is being lost: a good strategic game allows for move-counter-move-counter etc. and shouldn't prematurely lead to a situation where one side feels that they have no reply.

 

Er... you mean like how Night Hunters with no Energy just have to shimmy back and forth with their arms up in the air?

 

That sort of helplessness has been in the game since Day 1. No matter how good two chess players are, someone has to checkmate someone. The Night Hunter's mission is to put Humans in a state of inescapability, as is the Humans' for the Hunter.

 

 

Many players will swallow whatever Devs or gaming studios dish out, and revise their positions in function of what the studio decides. But people choosing this easy way and agreeing to be corporate tools, is not just embarrassing for the person in all of us, it is bad for business in games and beyond.

 

Demonizing the opposing opinion is not a counter-argument. It's no different than saying "I'm right, because the people who don't agree with me are stupid." Don't go all ad hominem just because you disagree with something - it's no way to get a point across.

 

 

Instead, lucky and therefore undeserved wins for every hunter, especially beginners, are apparently a higher priority. And this is where "a line is crossed"

 

qRJYOd8.jpg

Edited by DoctorPurrington

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I agree that it takes strategy out of the mix. That's never a good thing but you have to look at the overall points of techland reguardless of our opinions. Trust me when I say I'm on your side being a super nerd and playing hours and hours but techland sees it like all other big developers. If the game is hard then you have your small group of elite players stay and few new players come in. This is a revanue loss and that is, unfortunatly, a bigger concern for corperate greed than the satisfaction of the dedicared fan base. I would love this game to be focus on the BtZ aspect rather than the campaign to be honest.

 

My point is that they miss the mark with what you state as well, since now survivor side can only be played by folks that put in thousands of hours; i.e. supernerds with thousands of hours of experience have to team up to be able to match the level of mediocre hunters.

 

With all the chance built into the system, from rubber band measures to horde spit mechanics to the way a tackle turns out, even these games feel like luck determines turnouts. I loved this game for its immediacy, realism in combat, and clarity, not for Mario Kart like turnouts and statistics.

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Hi all, first i would like to thank you Techland for delivering the greatest multiplayer experience i ever had, 1v1 was my addiction for almost a year now. I think it was the only balanced mode, 2,3,4 vs 1 was not balanced in theory. In practice humans are not covering each other all the time, that's why people think 2,3,4 vs 1 was balanced. I also play sometimes as a hunter and flare spam is real in 2,3,4 vs 1. never in 1v1. Decision to give human 1 flare at a time is great for 2,3,4 humans vs hunter. But it completely destroys balance in 1v1. I know that there are not too many people who like to play 1v1 with top hunters so you will probably won't listen to me. I am dying breed and there are maybe 5 % players playing 1v1. I woul like to encourage all of you guys  to vote if you want to bring back old cooldowns for falres but only in 1v1. If the game can recognize when other players are joining and increase the ratio of recharging spits on the fly, why it can't allow for 2 flares in 1v1 ? If one flare at a time is here to stay in 1v1 i would like to say goodbye to all my hunter and human friends, it was a f.cking great time to play with you guys, sweet times.

 

Hey!  Sorry I didn't get to the forums here sooner. You're right EMtriX.  The flare cost increase is was implemented to help 2v1- 4v1. We want survivors to have to think a bit more about how they use this resource as it's a very effective tool in so many situations. This does make 1v1 more challenging than it already is...   Unfortunately the flare cost is not something we are able to tune separately. It needs to be applied to all modes the way it is currently set up.  

 

Flare cooldown has been reduced to a 10 second wait time. It was at 15 seconds previously.

 

Right now I do think the benefits to 2v1 - 4v1 gameplay outweigh the potential issues with 1v1.   I do believe skilled Survivors will be able to adapt. We'll continue watching this though... I've already looked at ways to potentially tweak flares a bit differently if this proves to be needed... 

 

As always, we appreciate the feedback from the community!  Thanks everyone!

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I agree, and it is something to cause the humans to think about. You complain that a mediocre hunter is winning... Do you play NH? We've been losing to mediocre humans in the Pacific Flare Ocean since most humans will never see the flare icon say anything less than 99.

 

If you get UV stuck.... throw a flare. What is the hunter going to do? Ground pound the flare, yay! You now have to avoid this GP and punish the hunter and I know high end survivors can 1h throw to tackle to kill instantly. Humans are just sad because they can't watch a movie anymore while playing.

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The game's been out for a year and a half already. Are we really expecting a magical influx of new players?

 

 

 

 

Er... you mean like how Night Hunters with no Energy just have to shimmy back and forth with their arms up in the air?

 

That sort of helplessness has been in the game since Day 1. No matter how good two chess players are, someone has to checkmate someone. The Night Hunter's mission is to put Humans in a state of inescapability, as is the Humans' for the Hunter.

 

 

 

 

Demonizing the opposing opinion is not a counter-argument. It's no different than saying "I'm right, because the people who don't agree with me are stupid." Don't go all ad hominem just because you disagree with something - it's no way to get a point across.

 

 

 

 

qRJYOd8.jpg

I really hate that you still try to talk down to people. If you're drained and you just sit there in the ground pound ready animation, then you're an idiot.

 

Stop. Just stop. Accept that you're a lower tier player and just stop trying to talk down to people like you're special. You're not. You're not skilled. Like you run away from challenges. It's a joke.

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Spinoza is probably one of the best night hunters out there and he lost to sokojik in a 1v1 post nerf with 5 lives remaining. It's still possible to win, people. Just adapt.

Thank you. Most of the skilled Night Hunters are so good because we dealt with horridly overpowered Humans for most of the stint of this game. Just accept the changes and dont rely on flares so much.

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Thank you. Most of the skilled Night Hunters are so good because we dealt with horridly overpowered Humans for most of the stint of this game. Just accept the changes and dont rely on flares so much.

First, the only competent people to talk about flare nerf are those who have played 1v1 with visceral and ionikalex, other top tier hunters are good, but they don't undesrtand the game mechanics as good as these two. After flare nerf i have played with couple of apex predators and still could win. With visc this is even harder now, i am far from saying this is impossible cause i've played only 2 times with him and i have not yet developed counter tactics... but yesterday without this crucial second flare i could not even touch the nests on rooftops xD.Sad thing about this game is that when you reach high level you can learn something new only from playing with visc and ioni...and very few. other I am just bored playing with other hunters, i cant learn nothing from them unless they will start to copy visceral behaviours.  Amazing thing about visc is that he is not waiting behind the corner like an idiot, he is circling around you in a closest safe distance possible waiting for a chance to pounce, he has speed buff all the time because he uses tendrils to speed up all the time. Forget about grabbing a ledge without throwing a flare earlier, in spilt second you will be pounced..He is circling around you like a falcon above his prey hehe... but he keeps the distance so you cant use uv. People talking about human being overpowered.... hahahaha play with visc and ioni... you wil sing a different song for sure :).

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qRJYOd8.jpg

doctor purrington, this is to you and all of your kind xd. My topic is created with best PC hunters in mind. Playing on a console is a diferent world.  This is my mistake, I should add in the topic this is for PC players.

You could have ten flares at a time... and best PC hunters would still be able to take you down in a spilt of a second. Tendrils speed + UV shield + uv spit + mouse precision = dead human in 1v1. Please, leave this topic xd, you are not playing as a human 1v1 with best... you will be just making newbie from yourself :) This picture with Kermit the frog is based on false logic. Every player who takes seriously his opponent is preparing for fight, before i knew about duping items i was scavenging for ingredients to have sth. like 50 flares, 40 medkits, 5-10 night hunter boosters, 5 cloak potions.  I was wasting my time before fighting top hunters. IT was like 1 hour scavenging for ingredients to play 20-25 minutes match with hunter. Hunters have to wait for me to enable invasions. They even told me about dupping so they could play with me more and honing their skills. I am talking about 1v1 only. Duping is not a problem, Problem is lack of skill and imagination from weak hunters side. And that "none of my business" is ... sorry... but i have to ... this is just stupid. How can you talk about balance when you are not playing as a human in 1v1 ? What were you thinking ? You have to play both sides to tell something, you are just ignorant...

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First, the only competent people to talk about flare nerf are those who have played 1v1 with visceral and ionikalex, other top tier hunters are good, but they don't undesrtand the game mechanics as good as these two. After flare nerf i have played with couple of apex predators and still could win. With visc this is even harder now, i am far from saying this is impossible cause i've played only 2 times with him and i have not yet developed counter tactics... but yesterday without this crucial second flare i could not even touch the nests on rooftops xD.Sad thing about this game is that when you reach high level you can learn something new only from playing with visc and ioni...and very few. other I am just bored playing with other hunters, i cant learn nothing from them unless they will start to copy visceral behaviours.  Amazing thing about visc is that he is not waiting behind the corner like an idiot, he is circling around you in a closest safe distance possible waiting for a chance to pounce, he has speed buff all the time because he uses tendrils to speed up all the time. Forget about grabbing a ledge without throwing a flare earlier, in spilt second you will be pounced..He is circling around you like a falcon above his prey hehe... but he keeps the distance so you cant use uv. People talking about human being overpowered.... hahahaha play with visc and ioni... you wil sing a different song for sure :).

 

I appreciate the thread and the understanding of PC world and game that you offer, EMtrix. Some of the Apex Predators out there, in PC context of 1v1, are just folks that leveled with buddies and are essentially beginners. Only played visceral or alex pre-following, and that fewer times than is necessary to judge abilities (everybody needs a few dozen games to do this, to see how folks react to various situations). There are quite a few folks on that highest level though and I know at least three who have quit, one of them post April patches and one of them for whom the flare here, was the final straw. DaniloCQ is similar level.

 

At a certain point it becomes ridiculous to speak about "best" because folks deal with the situation in front of them with experience they have. Put some person deemed "best" into the situation with hidden disadvantage, then they still loose. My point is that these combined measures to nerf survivors, of which the flare is just the latest example, are excessive and have the effect of making mediocre hunters OP, thereby rewarding unimaginative play AND pushing high level survivors to quit or play less. And when this happens the whole community looses: everybody "wins" playing opponents of similar level, and the departure of high level survivors lowers the standard. I know that if I played Alex or Dan, or somebody of that level today, I'd have trouble reaching the first nest... while a few months back I'd still have been able to counter them taking at least a nest or two, with some luck even a third.

 

It is an error to exclusively lay out a game for the most skilled players because every game needs new minds to survive long term. The elite can only become stronger with fresh problems/games/players and a culture that values decent playing chances and fun game play for all levels. This way everybody gets stronger. But the limit is undeserved wins, which is why I advance the point that survivor was nerfed too much, even if it makes me unpopular.

 

The justification now, is that continuing to nerf survivors was done for 2,3,4v1 balance. I am not really convinced by that: There is quite a difference between 4 survivors that are top level hunters playing against 1 top level hunter, in which case the hunter is at disadvantage and survivors OP, AND 4 mid-level survivors playing top level hunter, who will loose to that hunter easily with hunter being OP again. So even here, arguments that advance game balance are dubious. They may be easy to understand and good for advertising, but they fail by their own standards of "truly bringing balance", which is a bit nonsensical in the first place, concerning games of strategy. Just make the game fun with less undeserved wins and things will regulate themselves towards equilibrium automatically and people will be happier with their games and experience.

 

A survivor opening their game for 1v1, without seeing the complex history of the game mode, has little to no chance these days. They'll probably close invasions after being pounced in their safe zones.  :D Unfortunately, they are perhaps correct to do so.

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