Wiggelz

Would Love To See A 2Nd Zombie Added.

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I'll just reiterate what I said previously - 2 Hunters should be a weekend event, nothing more. No need care about balance since it's only for 2 days, and Humans who don't want to deal with it can just not play BtZ until the weekend is over. Much simpler.

This is better but there's still the issue of how they're going to implement it. If they were to force two hunter slots then they'd have to work on matchmaking for that which could be a huge undertaking and not worth getting it to work for only a weekend.

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So I love what techland has done with the NH and for the most part, 90%, I think it's quite balanced. I see a lot of complaints on here but most are just personnal stuff. One thing I notice is people want more for BTZ than just the one playstyle.

 

I would love to see a mode available for 2 NH to join. The one thing I love about the normal human side if the game is the teamwork and I'd love to have that on the zombie side. It's just a fact that if you're alone you'll tend to be slower and more cautious whereas if you have a buddy you're willing to jump in the fray more and be able to talk to someone.

 

I know this would be tough to balance but Techland is a smart bunch of people and I think they'd like the challenge but let's start up this thread to give some ideas. Here are some thoughts I have:

 

- Allow humans to choose if they want to be invaded by only 1 hunter or 2.

- Add a class system to zombies. (This allows different methods of teamwork and gives the humans a challenge of different combos of NH)

+ Stealth Hunter: Has an ability, similar to a cloak potion, that allows the hunter to go invisible to survivor sense for a short time.

+ Brute Hunter: Focused on raw melee power. Better ground pound and tackles. Can enrage to run faster and only stagger when hit by buggies.

+ Toad Hunter: Weaker melee hits but has an arsenol of spits. Better at range and has actual damaging spits.

- Weaken the NH when 2 join. Only allow 2v4, 2v3 or 2v2 while adjusting damage to suit the opponents.

 

The main thing I'd like to see this implemented is to introduce the NH system to the weaker PvP players. It can be EXTREMELY intimidating to try the NH alone and get discouraged by being alone and getting beat up and end up stop playing BTZ. This would give them incentive to at least try and learn or have a friend help them learn and have the confidence to play alone sometimes.

 

 

That might be to OP and not reliable. Even if you add restrictions, so the second NH can't join until there is at least 2 survivors, one of the survivors may leave the game leaving 2 NH against 1 survivor, what then, automatic dosconnection of one NH?

 

Instead of 2nd NH, maybe a playable viral would be a good idea.

 

Maybe 2NH vs 6 survivors would be good fight, but i'm afraid that lag would destroy the pleasure.

Edited by sanjyuubi

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Those are the single player changes I talked about that carry over into multiplayer because BtZ is not a separate entity from the main campaign.

 

Also think about this "Survivors get 75 more health? Throw in two night hunters to balance." That's a LITTLE extreme and a better solution would be to scale the night hunters health or damage instead. Buggies are a moot point because they only apply on one map out of three, you can't make balance changes solely based on one map and not the others. For instance the hunters ability to maintain his momentum from tendril locomotion, which was intended mainly for the following map, has given him a slight advantage on the slums and old town. Instant heal on normal was intended, duping medkits so you can heal your way out of any situation was not.

 

The hunter dies in 3 hits because that's how he was designed, a glass cannon. The devs have already confirmed this was intended from the start so it's most likely not going to change. The night hunter is a high risk high reward character that takes a little bit of work to use correctly. A lot of those things you mentioned fall under the high risk category and were designed to be that way from the start. The only big issues I see people complain about now are the crossbow not being balanced at all and the fact that the hunters spit pounce lock exploit still exists.

 

While it is true that the Hunter was conceived from the start to be a "glass cannon", the simple fact is that it cannot remain so. Perhaps this was OK when the game was originally released, but now as the game as been out for over a year, and we've all seen what has come and gone, the bottom line is that the Hunter can no longer stay a glass cannon. There are far too many exploits, the Humans are still OP, and the overall frustration with the mode as become more and more apparent. 

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This is better but there's still the issue of how they're going to implement it. If they were to force two hunter slots then they'd have to work on matchmaking for that which could be a huge undertaking and not worth getting it to work for only a weekend.

 

Hm. True. I'd like to think it's just something they can shut on and off, like increasing/decreasing the values of the Buggy/Tackle/Dropkick/GP power for the other weekends.

 

You know what would be really fun? Let's get the Devs to just say, "Eh, chupacabra it" and just remove the Hunter/Human match limit barrier entirely. I'm talkin' 6 Hunters Vs. 10 Human rumbles. Everyone just gets in the same map and blows everything up.

 

Best weekend ever.

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While it is true that the Hunter was conceived from the start to be a "glass cannon", the simple fact is that it cannot remain so. Perhaps this was OK when the game was originally released, but now as the game as been out for over a year, and we've all seen what has come and gone, the bottom line is that the Hunter can no longer stay a glass cannon. There are far too many exploits, the Humans are still OP, and the overall frustration with the mode as become more and more apparent. 

 

Balancing the game to match exploiters isn't really the way to go about it either. You sacrifice two groups of players that way: newcomers to the game and those who have played legit since day one. There's a fine line to tread when it comes balance in this regard and I like I was saying earlier I don't think techland really cares that much about BtZ at this point to overhaul everything and start over. Maybe in the sequel though.

 

Hm. True. I'd like to think it's just something they can shut on and off, like increasing/decreasing the values of the Buggy/Tackle/Dropkick/GP power for the other weekends.

 

You know what would be really fun? Let's get the Devs to just say, "Eh, chupacabra it" and just remove the Hunter/Human match limit barrier entirely. I'm talkin' 6 Hunters Vs. 10 Human rumbles. Everyone just gets in the same map and blows everything up.

 

Best weekend ever.

 

As long as I don't have to babysit defenseless volatile spawns anymore then I'm down  B)

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Balancing the game to match exploiters isn't really the way to go about it either. You sacrifice two groups of players that way: newcomers to the game and those who have played legit since day one. There's a fine line to tread when it comes balance in this regard and I like I was saying earlier I don't think techland really cares that much about BtZ at this point to overhaul everything and start over. Maybe in the sequel though.

 

 

As long as I don't have to babysit defenseless volatile spawns anymore then I'm down  B)

 

I was never supporting balancing the game to match exploiters. I merely stated that the NH cannot remain a glass cannon because of people abusing the exploits, Humans remaining OP, etc. You can tweak and refine the game without actually "balancing" it per se. There are still a million and one reasons why the game remains unbalanced, but the fundamental aspect of the NH still being a glass cannon needs to be changed. I don't think that TL could have seen how people have taken the game in the year or so since it was released and having the NH remain a glass cannon just doesn't fit the bill anymore. However, I will agree with you about your sentiment regarding TL not caring that much anymore. I believe that the big patch that came with The Following was probably the last meaningful hoorah. Let's hope that second time is a charm when / if Dying Light 2 ever comes to fruition. 

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I'd be happy with it in Dying Light 2 if that does happen. Putting a bit more effort into BTZ wouldn't be a bad thing. The PvP is what keeps the gane interesting. How many people enjoy running around killing CPU zombies that run on a track based code that only let's them do and act a certain way while a NH has decisions and changing playstyles, always keeping humans on thier toes. That is.... until they learn to exploit dodge/flares. This is where the next level would come in. Fighting 2 NH with at least 1 friend. This coule simply be another DLC that doesn't have to be as big as The Following. Be the Zombie mode is one of the only things keeping a lot of fans into the game.

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That is.... until they learn to exploit dodge/flares. This is where the next level would come in. Fighting 2 NH with at least 1 friend. This coule simply be another DLC that doesn't have to be as big as The Following. Be the Zombie mode is one of the only things keeping a lot of fans into the game.

You still have a big leap in logic here. The game is balanced until survivors learn how to dodge and throw flares, in which it becomes unbalanced, so when you add an additional night hunter the game suddenly becomes balanced again? You're skipping over the issue of the mechanics of dodges and flares themselves, which are tunable, and throwing in an additional feature which will have its own set of balancing issues that need to be dealt with. It's much more costly to rework the entire matchmaking system in an effort to balance two mechanics than it is to just simply tweak the parameters of said mechanics which Pete has stated he can do without pushing out a patch to download. BtZ just isn't under the budget for this kind of update.

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The balance of the game mode has become a viral advertising gimmick. Completely engineered by marketing and cultural narratives, it lacks credibility. This "debate" is a main pillar of advertising for BtZ mode, which anybody can see who plays survivors and hunters: it gets mentioned in matches and people will want to have a debate concerning "balance" during the game itself. :huh: And since everybody feels their opinion to matter, the viral ad works.

 

If the discussion is really as serious as people suggest: When is a game balanced? By what measure? In what theory? What if that measure is obscured by exploits, cheats etc.? How would proof of balance be established then? What if a game is balanced but boring to play?

 

And because few folks provide footage of their play that relates to what balance means and why it should be pursued... and since even fewer people provide a theory of balance, with which we could say measure and parse different forms of gameplay and see if they fulfill the necessary conditions, it is impossible to come to some sort of agreement on whether the game is balanced or not based on opinions. Since neither Techland nor any posts known to me, have stated such a clear base, I take the discussion nowadays to be pure advertising effect. Pushing this discussion too much, you end up advertising stooge of corporate entity and I hope people are well paid as such; but it still is not a serious discussion because it never was. You might argue this discussion to have been more real at launch in 2015, but ever since Dying Light sold successfully, in absence of terms and definitions we can agree on, this discourse has turned into pure advertising. And everybody knows such discussions to be endless because they lack a ground or theory. That's the logic; and no pointing towards leaps in logic at some point will turn an unclear discussion that lacks a base, into a clear discussion that has one.

 

Much more can be learned from what people consider to be fun. Feasibility questions are for Techland devs to sort out and I find these considerations in context of balancing "discussion" to be amazingly self-flattering. As if anybody listened to- or credited ideas to folks here! And @Jcks: you sound like you're going to have to pay for everybody's wishes here.  :lol:  Do you really have that kind of cash and/or pull over at Techland? 

 

It is clear that folks want more room to customize their multiplayer experience in Dying Light. That people disagree on some subjective, utterly personal and perhaps not even communicable definition of "balance", points to the same fact: customized match making and greater freedom so that everybody can play their game according to their understanding, preferences, and what they ultimately find satisfying. Maybe go server client next time. Of course, it is everybody's right to play police with others' opinions, but this makes for bad reading and community; for me it's "vive la difference" anyway because I'm too lazy to play policeman and I enjoy all the funky ideas people are posting of late. No matter how OP whichever side turns out to be: keep 'em coming, have yourselves some good games, and don't let your mood be influenced by all the grumpy discussions here. We should have a thread for the most impractical, impossible, irresponsible, imbalanced, insane modifications to the game mode conceivable. If I wanted realism I would hardly play a zombie game. :)

Edited by Chickeninja

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Thank you Chicken. It couldn't of been said any better. I have nothing to add. I do think there are imbalaces but I'm not here to complain about them. I started this thread to 'add' another fun feature to BTZ rather than fixing it. I personally don't think there is a super imbalance to it now and like you said... the imbalances are opinions. Does dodge/flare spam suck? Yes, but there are ways to combat it. You just need to understand that there are people that are good at playing and be able to admit some are better than yourself. Those matches are where you improve the most. I enjoy losing sometimes because I learn the areas I'm weak in as a NH. I mainly get frustrated at lagg issues.

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Thank you Chicken. It couldn't of been said any better. I have nothing to add. I do think there are imbalaces but I'm not here to complain about them. I started this thread to 'add' another fun feature to BTZ rather than fixing it. I personally don't think there is a super imbalance to it now and like you said... the imbalances are opinions. Does dodge/flare spam suck? Yes, but there are ways to combat it. You just need to understand that there are people that are good at playing and be able to admit some are better than yourself. Those matches are where you improve the most. I enjoy losing sometimes because I learn the areas I'm weak in as a NH. I mainly get frustrated at lagg issues.

 

Yeah, we had a guy with so much lag the other day, it was like playing a guy who had teleport abilities. We asked, and he was on slow connection at the end of the world somewhere. It became a real challenge to predict the lag AND play a decent game but we figured "who else is the guy going to play? Everybody will walk out on him." So this guy was living out his hunter fantasy and telling us how he was going to destroy us, while we were all busy not just trying to get a decent result, but have the match make basic game playing sense, minimizing our movement so as not to teleport too much on his end.

 

He left us with "gg" and we were happy that the thing hadn't stooped to the usual common cheat accusations but I guess he had some idea of what was going on.

 

But you're right, with 2 hunters or more players, network standards should be higher to not loose the fun combat mechanics.

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I think it would be better if we could have an option for it! :D

This would add a new option below invasion frequency named Hunter Limit. Players can decide between the 3 following options.

  1. ONLY Single Hunters
  2. Single OR Double Hunters
  3. ONLY Double Hunters

Hunters could join the training area together and form a double or just be randomly paired if two people invade one person at the same time.

There was a bug in the past that somehow got this player two zombies in his game! Would be epic if we could do this whenever we wanted.

 

https://youtu.be/g0vMHsh8UpA?t=25s

Great idea! This would definitely spice up the gameplay a bit!

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