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Hunter Op Means Less Fun

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Thanks for clearing up the rubber band tuning as much as is possible at least, Nova. So many posts here sometimes, that such crucial info just gets lost in the mix.


And yes, I might have been wrong in looking for some silver bullet reason of why survivor play post the patches has become less fun, such as guessing smaller hitboxes were/are responsible, but even looking at the official lists:


2. Melee damage to Nests and Hunter adjusted/re-tuned

3. Bullet damage to Nests and Hunter reduced

4. Difficulty of "Hard Nests" increased across all variation (1v1,2v1,3v1,4v1 -more defenders,goons,extra brood)

7. Grappling hook cooldown cost increased

12. Outside damage mitigated while in PVP grab states (tackle, dropkick, pounce etc.)

13. DFA commitment.  Survivors cannot quick roll out of a DFA attempt.

19. Fixed an issue where Survivors could use the 'forward roll' skill to negate fall damage from a Tackle

20. AOE knockdown on successful tackle  (Hunter)

23. Hunter inherits more velocity when releasing tendrils

24. Hunter can transition directly from tendrils to sprint 

25. Hunter can hold tackle input to trigger a successful tackle when available

UV Light: Added a start-up cost for U.V. Flashlight.  Flicking your U.V. Light on and off repeatedly will drain it quicker than keeping it on.

Potions: Reduced the amount of "speed buff" and "damage mitigation buff" when using potions in BTZ.


I think it is plausible to argue that the general aesthetic experience of playing survivor feels like a wrench/spanner has been thrown in the works (or sand into the machine) relative to how the experience used to be. This is not an appeal to restore the old state-of-affairs, as we have grown and seen that the Night Hunter needed some support. But there is the question of degree and "how much? Where?"...Nerfing survivor this exhaustively is heavy-handed, especially given the increase of forced tactical sequences like pounce/GP, spit smash etc. All of the measures combined equate to a sum experience of being tied down without a chance; not promoting respect for hunters, which was part of the aim, but resignation, especially in 1v1 and 1v2.


Cheating survivors will feel justifiably, that they have to balance the game mode themselves and as hunter, I see them hard at work with a new bunch of tricks; a development which makes survivor play of decent folks who don't cheat more unlikely, as e.g. they have been strengthening the nests for the cheaters and not the normal crowd.


Finally another note on grappling hook bearing on Pete's statement:



As for grapple... You can still use it twice in a row, 3 times if you pause for half a second in between throws.  The intention is that you need to think about how you use it now...similar to why we applied the cooldown to flares.  You need to weigh the costs of using grapple for gaining ground towards the nest or gaining tactical advantage on the Hunter.  It's a resource you have to manage.  


The game's pace has increased with hunters' agility boost in many areas. How is a survivor supposed to weigh the cost of using a grapple hook or not when there are no consistently effective stealth options for him? He's running from the hunter, or locked in engagement with hunter, or in much smaller number of cases hiding with camo/potion on a tight clock; all of which together make judicious weighing of "should I now use grapple or not?" much less likely: survivors that are late are dead survivors, which is how it should be.


The lack of effective, appropriately weighted survivor counters to the sum total of these measures is that survivor feels "too weak, too slow, too cumbersome/unwieldy". This sum total experience of limitations and cuts in all these areas, along with hunter buffs is so pervasive and exhaustive: it makes me feel as though hitboxes have been made smaller or that other sneaky stuff is going on.


My lapse in judgement was/is therefore sincere: With the hunter this fast and hitboxes not having been changed... this in itself is a fact already working against survivors: shouldn't a hunter who's average speed has increased mean that survivors should be able adapt to such speed and be able to hit him? Idk as I'm not developer, but I thought these things were obvious.


I would never request carte blanche, as this would just flip the problem. But finer calibration is required, almost regardless of where/what is nerfed/buffed.


Peace, and have a good weekend guys. :)

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Why when GP a flare it doesnt count as a successful GP? It gives points but aint worth destroy it if its used as a lure. Also why devs didnt give a dash movement to NH but rather a "skill" to jump higher which its useless since survivors can dropkick 10ft on the air? Im not asking for a fix Im just curious.

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I'd guess that Hunter'd be able to GP too much in quick succession concerning flare. The high jump skill in combination with "demon speed" is very hard to target with dropkick as a survivor as you can see in the video I posted on the subject some weeks ago:



At around 2:00 min you see it in context of open field to get an idea of possible moves.


To be clear, I'm not pushing for some fix, buff, or nerf. This thread started out as nothing other than a gut feeling that hitboxes got smaller or that sneaky stuff was going on to help hunter wins. And although technically incorrect, that gut feeling remains the same for a valid reason: dozens of measures I pointed towards working in harmony to raise agility of hunter while nerfing or restricting survivor abilities/agility make survivor players' gaming experience take a hit. 


The reason this remains in our community's blind spot is that we rightfully pushed for hunter to be strengthened and it feels treacherous to now be advocating something that seems to oppose that. But I don't oppose the changes, especially since they are fun from hunter side. All I'm stating is that the current BtZ survivor, in terms of playing experience, is too weak and too slow NOT merely for wins, but more importantly for fun play. We see that strengthening hunter in these ways cuts into parkour, which is a key feature of the character. The campaign was fun imho because of the parkour while BtZ seems to exist despite parkour, with skilled survivors doing everything to avoid the animations that serve them up to the hunter for a quick pounce.


In the sense of freedom of movement, today's survivor in BtZ feels somehow like a limited, handicapped version of last year's Crane. The buggy does not provide the right kind of compensation for this, especially since it can only be used on new maps. But the hunter changes were awesome. It is just a bit too much to nerf Crane to this degree, without giving the old dog some new tricks, aside from some guns/crossbows, which are not mobility related. In terms of parkour playing experience: It feels like last year survivors were driving some sports car as smooth as silk and that this year, they drive some cheap vehicle with paint job coming off that won't even start reliably. Nobody wants last year to return, but folks do want to enjoy their rides somewhere, or not?


Imho survivors should be able to grapple more freely and, with exception to e.g. advantageous exploits for killing nests faster with two handed weapons, removing the funky things survivors could do with the grappling hook (such as fly up walls; I once saw a hunter catch a DFA from a survivor on top of Brecken's tower lol) is a bit joyless. To be honest, I hoped they'd use these types of grapple moves for a new hierarchy of ninja style skills Crane could pull off... to say get himself out of that absurd AoE (this area could have some Tom Clancy Night Vision goggle animation to mark it, if this mechanism is kept) sleep animation during hunter's tackle, launch himself out of GP range with the right kind of prediction and situational awareness, types of mega jump with cool down etc. :ph34r:


TL;DR And no, nobody wants OP survivor again, but he has to be somehow fun to play, and feeling like sneaky measures have been taken to make survivors loose, is exactly what an excessively limited playing experience, in context of a game with quick pace that emphasizes quick action and freedom of movement in an open world, would feel like.

Edited by Chickeninja

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Too much survivor grappling hook would be a bit tough for beginning hunters; especially as survivor numbers increase, only the best hunters out there can keep track of what's going on. Too little survivor grappling hook, and many rooftop chases, battles, and predictions involving the fun vertical aspect of the game will never take place. That's why gameplay is more joyless to me with current system: simple preference of complex, multi-level rooftop action over more predictable ground level battles and random horde mechanics.

Edited by Chickeninja

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