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Chickeninja

Hunter Op Means Less Fun

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Tl;dr: Hunter is OP but not in a fun way. Some conjecture as to reasons for this.

 

Been trying to find folks that think that hunter is not clearly op in 1v1 or 1v2, and a bit less op in 1v3 or 1v4, but so far have been unsuccessful. Most hunters I encounter tend to regurgitate tips from the hint menus (or other advice of that quality) while most survivors don't seem to have the experience to make the call. Balance measures seem to orient themselves towards rectifying 1v4, assuming everybody to be high level in terms of experience. I'd still put my money on a hunter win though, because as the game is calibrated today, a mediocre hunter presents real problems to high level survivors, even if they are veterans of the game.

 

The reason for this lies not exclusively with the tackle or speed/agility buffs, but also with simultaneous nerfs along almost all possible spectra of survivor ability:

 

  • Hitboxes seem significantly smaller across all weapon types especially 2-handed weapons; this doesn't come up in discussions as often as it should
  • maligned Survivor sSense is weakened significantly by hunter speed and multiplication of lucky pounces
  • DFA as the situational trump card is weakened (I missed a GP and had an experienced DFA survivor drop to their death right next to me with not a whisker between us, which would never had occurred before some of the recent changes)
  • grappling hook and survivor movement/agility have seen significant nerfs; while this may be justified by use of the buggy, the open world concept should leave it up to survivors whether they choose buggy or older forms of locomotion

This, along with strengthening of statistical success rate of Horde Spit mechanic, with folks posting images of magical, flying bombers and yours truly having seen them reaching bullet speeds, is not merely a balancing issue: it takes fun out of the game for anybody with some experience in BtZ world.

 

Even as hunter, the game has lost that sense of immediacy, scale, and directness that distinguishes the Dying Light universe from other games. Same for rubberband measures: if they rob from this immediacy then Dying Light BtZ just moves closer to more common game play. The increased wins and kill count for my hunter can't make up for this and for now, I remain unconvinced concerning the changes of late. The Following was an amazing expansion, an enrichment of the game world, and general concept; but buffing hunter agility WHILE nerfing survivor ability to this degree is excessive.

 

Sure, tackle mechanic leads to less hunter deaths... but from survivor pov, the player is locked in a "well, I'm a go to sleep now- animation". Not only is this absurd and less fun for survivors, it promotes a type of hunter game play that is more situationally ignorant... as the tactic can be employed almost universally with almost zero consequence for bad judgement. Attention to the game world matters less as a consequence, and although I have enjoyed the fun of playing hunter here; e.g. the thrill of hitting a survivor before you know you hit them mid-air somewhere... matches feel less epic because of this.

 

The only fun this state-of-affairs produces atm is mediocre hunters lecturing and policing folks about their game play, skills, and playing styles feeling vindicated by their wins. :D

 

If indeed the glass canon ideal is the template, as Pete and others have suggested, then imprecise tackles in the wrong situations shouldn't be rewarded. This is more of a rubber canon. :) Mostly, the mode seems more fuzzy and less sharp than it used to be with overall outcomes becoming more predictable and a lower likelihood to have games turn on a dime, in that epic way folks seemed to enjoy in the past. With new content announced, I hope that there will be more convincing reasons for survivor veterans to keep playing.

 

Nerfing DFA like this also promotes more predictable, less situationally aware play from survivor pov. Imho the game shouldn't be dumbed-down for mediocre hunters to feel a sense of accomplishment when they have little reason to. If this is what "balanced" feels like, then I'd like all the new toys, countryside, and most of the new mechanics without such balance or at least with much less of the same.

 

Peace + it'd be nice for once to have this thread not devolve into some hunters vs. survivors shouting match. Folks should play both sides to see what a pointless exercise this is, as hunters need survivors and vice versa. Therefore my attempt to offer only "what clearly isn't fun" from survivor pov, instead of telling folks how to play and/or interpret their game.

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Funny how the most honest post that isn't a 12 year old whinning because they still are garbage as a hunter has no replies. The Hunter is ridiculous now i shouldn't be wrecking ultimates as a bolter. Sad thing is nothing will change because the majority of people on here are cry babies, and who will they listen to? You guessed it, the majority. This game is dying the gameplay Isn't it fast paced and intense anymore it's one sided with this this no form of loser buff welfare where you can spit smash non stop if you die a few times. Lets not even mention the cutdown in the KO timer to what? like 10 seconds? Humans don't stand a chance anymore and this makes the game more derivative and boring than COD, hmm mayb thats what the devs are shooting for

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Funny how the most honest post that isn't a 12 year old whinning because they still are garbage as a hunter has no replies.

 

In an effort to sound as unbiased as possible, I'm just a little confused by the post. Barring the Grappling Hook nerf, which only consisted of the cooldown cost increasing due to the item's considerable spamming, none of these things were actually nerfed on the Human side. Unless PC has different nerfs, there wasn't a movement nerf, a DFA magnetism nerf, or a Survivor Sense nerf. So I'm not really sure what's being said.

 

It really may just be a PC thing. There are considerably less players on PC - once the glitches were patched and VAC bans started coming into effect, the competitive Human community probably just dwindled.

 

There's a few who visit this site often, but honestly, there's only like 15-20 regular posters on the BtZ board. We're not exactly a majority voice.

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In an effort to sound as unbiased as possible, I'm just a little confused by the post. Barring the Grappling Hook nerf, which only consisted of the cooldown cost increasing due to the item's considerable spamming, none of these things were actually nerfed on the Human side.

 

This is why I prefaced my post as conjecture lacking facts and background.

 

Unless PC has different nerfs, there wasn't a movement nerf, a DFA magnetism nerf, or a Survivor Sense nerf. So I'm not really sure what's being said.

 

If you can point towards positive proof concerning validity of your statements, please provide such. Apologies if I don't believe "didn't hear nothing", but informing the community through forum almost never happens, with exception of the exploit thread which we had to push for, for months. 

 

My proof, and I have a few veterans to back me up is all, is that we represent collectively a few thousand hours of BtZ experience. We all felt that something was modified post following expansion concerning hitboxes, DFA, global movement abilities of survivor due to grapple hook, survivor sense nerf as practical net result of speeding up hunter for "lucky-gotcha-pounces" (as opposed to direct nerf). And since we have no proof, you may be correct and a few dozen PC players just collectively lost their skills, as well as their ability to assess the game they've been playing for a year, ALL AT THE SAME TIME during some patch post following release. We all noticed the change within a day and thought that devs were calibrating and/or preparing for new content/mechanics.

 

Qwop makes a good point (welcome btw!): the changes we're pointing towards on PC here move in the same direction as that nerf in the timer for reviving survivors. I missed that point in my original post: Reviving teammates is one of the fundamental teamwork mechanics. Cutting this time effectively produces more hunter wins, but results in making tactics poorer around a downed survivor; this, besides disincentivizing teamwork (which IS the pillar for the whole asymmetric thing to work from survivor side) seems to work against tension in game and for predictability of hunter wins. You can even claim some profound social dimension, as I've seen friendships form because of this mechanic. I'd bet hunter wins are up on all platforms however, in recent weeks.

 

It really may just be a PC thing. There are considerably less players on PC - once the glitches were patched and VAC bans started coming into effect, the competitive Human community probably just dwindled.

 

There's a few who visit this site often, but honestly, there's only like 15-20 regular posters on the BtZ board. We're not exactly a majority voice.

 

I could see that some might speculate that PC hunters have a more difficult life because survivors have mouse mobility. But I don't really believe it. Even on PC, my survivor requires a different kind of finesse than my hunter, as hunter relies more on forced animation sequences that pop up or not... and needs to get into position for them to do so. I loved the fact that a hunter can say pounce below a UV lamp and that it matters WHERE we hit. What is clear, is that if hitboxes are smaller, folks on PC will be the first to notice because their reflexes are more adapted to negotiating a less stabilized perspective. We'll more easily loose aim sure, but we get compensated in terms of precision, so it is plausible that we feel when things are off sooner.

 

Also, the implication that VAC works and survivors left the party is perhaps a bit quick with evidence required to substantiate such a claim. If hunters outnumber survivors, as some Dev claimed in the past, then it is all the more important to see to it that survivors have fun and reasons to return to the game, as the hunter has to feed on somebody, no? Hunter wins at the cost of immediacy and directness of play. I never thought I'd say it, but now I do. Such changes (or anything that might produce such effects) should be announced and loyal fans should be kept in the loop, instead of second guessing their own moves and playing history, concerning a game they've purchased.

 

Hope this clarifies a bit. Peace, and sure, if others have both console AND PC experience their contributions are relevant because this is mostly speculation, with nothing "official" to go by.

Edited by Chickeninja

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This is why I prefaced my post as conjecture lacking facts and background.

 

 

If you can point towards positive proof concerning validity of your statements, please provide such. Apologies if I don't believe "didn't hear nothing", but informing the community through forum almost never happens, with exception of the exploit thread which we had to push for, for months. 

 

My proof, and I have a few veterans to back me up is all, is that we represent collectively a few thousand hours of BtZ experience. We all felt that something was modified post following expansion concerning hitboxes, DFA, global movement abilities of survivor due to grapple hook, survivor sense nerf as practical net result of speeding up hunter for "lucky-gotcha-pounces" (as opposed to direct nerf). And since we have no proof, you may be correct and a few dozen PC players just collectively lost their skills, as well as their ability to assess the game they've been playing for a year, ALL AT THE SAME TIME during some patch post following release. We all noticed the change within a day and thought that devs were calibrating and/or preparing for new content/mechanics.

 

Qwop makes a good point (welcome btw!): the changes we're pointing towards on PC here move in the same direction as that nerf in the timer for reviving survivors. I missed that point in my original post: Reviving teammates is one of the fundamental teamwork mechanics. Cutting this time effectively produces more hunter wins, but results in making tactics poorer around a downed survivor; this, besides disincentivizing teamwork (which IS the pillar for the whole asymmetric thing to work from survivor side) seems to work against tension in game and for predictability of hunter wins. You can even claim some profound social dimension, as I've seen friendships form because of this mechanic. I'd bet hunter wins are up on all platforms however, in recent weeks.

 

 

I could see that some might speculate that PC hunters have a more difficult life because survivors have mouse mobility. But I don't really believe it. Even on PC, my survivor requires a different kind of finesse than my hunter, as hunter relies more on forced animation sequences that pop up or not... and needs to get into position for them to do so. I loved the fact that a hunter can say pounce below a UV lamp and that it matters WHERE we hit. What is clear, is that if hitboxes are smaller, folks on PC will be the first to notice because their reflexes are more adapted to negotiating a less stabilized perspective. We'll more easily loose aim sure, but we get compensated in terms of precision, so it is plausible that we feel when things are off sooner.

 

Also, the implication that VAC works and survivors left the party is perhaps a bit quick with evidence required to substantiate such a claim. If hunters outnumber survivors, as some Dev claimed in the past, then it is all the more important to see to it that survivors have fun and reasons to return to the game, as the hunter has to feed on somebody, no? Hunter wins at the cost of immediacy and directness of play. I never thought I'd say it, but now I do. Such changes (or anything that might produce such effects) should be announced and loyal fans should be kept in the loop, instead of second guessing their own moves and playing history, concerning a game they've purchased.

 

Hope this clarifies a bit. Peace, and sure, if others have both console AND PC experience their contributions are relevant because this is mostly speculation, with nothing "official" to go by.

We just gotta wait to see is Pete will clarify this for you. But the reason NH's get more tips n tricks rather than humans is because.. humans definitely are stronger than us. We work harder(which I went over in multiple posts) and ect.. humans are more resourceful than us and aren't that much slower than us.

 

To be nonbias as possibly, like Doctor, I'll just say that I think this is more of a....turnaround in a way. Now no, it doesn't mean "HAHA HUMANS SUCK AND HUNTERZ RULE NOW" but I think humans are getting more of the feel of helplessness against OP hunters now. You're pretty much gettin a taste of your own medicine.

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This is why I prefaced my post as conjecture lacking facts and background.

 

:huh: That's... kind of what I was saying. There are claims here, but most of them don't appear to have happened. You're listing reasons for the Hunter's rise in strength, but there's no facts or background suggesting that those factors exist.

 

 

If you can point towards positive proof concerning validity of your statements, please provide such. Apologies if I don't believe "didn't hear nothing", but informing the community through forum almost never happens, with exception of the exploit thread which we had to push for, for months.

 

Little confused by this as well. You even mention the BtZ glitches thread, where all the patch notes have been assembled, but none of them list these nerfs that you're mentioning. Do you think there's an anti-Human coverup where secret nerfs are being put into place? I play Human occasionally and haven't noticed any movement or DFA magnetism nerfs, and I barely use the Hook enough to notice that one. There's no reason to suggest the list of patch notes provided to the community are somehow "incomplete."

 

Informing the community through the forum happens on a daily basis, so not sure where that one's coming from. Mike & Pete comment regularly, and when I first asked for the patch notes of the first-ever BtZ patch, they provided them to the community in an instant. Even made a video about it!

 

 

 

My proof, and I have a few veterans to back me up is all, is that we represent collectively a few thousand hours of BtZ experience. We all felt that something was modified post following expansion concerning hitboxes, DFA, global movement abilities of survivor due to grapple hook, survivor sense nerf as practical net result of speeding up hunter for "lucky-gotcha-pounces" (as opposed to direct nerf). And since we have no proof, you may be correct and a few dozen PC players just collectively lost their skills, as well as their ability to assess the game they've been playing for a year, ALL AT THE SAME TIME during some patch post following release. We all noticed the change within a day and thought that devs were calibrating and/or preparing for new content/mechanics.

 

You're saying that you have proof, and then that you have no proof, at the same time. I don't know what a "lucky-gotcha-pounce" is, but are you referring to the speed boost Hunters get when they Tendril to the ground? There was no overall speed boost. This is the boost in speed anyone's talking about when they mention speed boosts.

 

I don't want to seem rude, but the patch you're talking about removed a considerable amount of glitches and exploits from the game. That may be the reason some of your friends noticed the drop in win percentages.

 

the changes we're pointing towards on PC here move in the same direction as that nerf in the timer for reviving survivors. I missed that point in my original post: Reviving teammates is one of the fundamental teamwork mechanics. Cutting this time effectively produces more hunter wins, but results in making tactics poorer around a downed survivor; this, besides disincentivizing teamwork (which IS the pillar for the whole asymmetric thing to work from survivor side) seems to work against tension in game and for predictability of hunter wins.

 

The requests to lower Human revive time have been on this forum for as long as I have. 30 seconds was too long. 15 seconds is also a long time, which is mitigated by the Hunter's ability to shave off 5 seconds per hit, putting it at an appropriate 3 hits to kill. Shorter times prevent the previous lackluster effort to avoid death in 1 Vs. 2+; now it's a risky and dangerous move to let a single player go down in a multiplayer setting. Honestly, it's where it should be.

 

 

You can even claim some profound social dimension, as I've seen friendships form because of this mechanic.

 

:huh: This is just strange.

 

I could see that some might speculate that PC hunters have a more difficult life because survivors have mouse mobility.

 

Again, not to be rude, but the only thing I'm speculating is that some PC folk didn't enjoy having their exploits removed. The Night Hunter's actually pretty hard to kill without infinite inventories, insta-swing 2Hs, OHKO arrows/GHs, etc. Humans might just now be realizing this after a full year of being able to, for all intents and purposes, cheat. Which they're still doing with duping, of course, but that's another story altogether.

 

I'm really just not sure what you're trying to say here, other than it now being more difficult to kill the Hunter. That's what happens when balancing takes effect. We've gone an entire year with various exploits and glitches helping Humans along, but a vast majority of those are gone, and they're starting to feel the sting.

 

Which is fine. But calling for nerfs by making claims that the Humans have "lost" something isn't, especially when these claims are conjecture. Humans never had impenetrable walls, or infinite GH uses, or OHKO Swords/Arrows. None of these belonged in the game. Humans haven't lost speed, or power. They just have to play by (mostly) the rules now, and the gravity only feels harsh because they've been floating around outside the map for too long.

 

 

To be nonbias as possibly, like Doctor, I'll just say that I think this is more of a....turnaround in a way. Now no, it doesn't mean "HAHA HUMANS SUCK AND HUNTERZ RULE NOW" but I think humans are getting more of the feel of helplessness against OP hunters now. You're pretty much gettin a taste of your own medicine.

 

Well, I can't say I'm not biased. But it's definitely a turnaround. And Night Hunters aren't even handing it back in spades - we can't cheat. It's just becoming clear, for many, that the Hunter doesn't just roll over and die when he can't be one-shot. Humans can still max themselves out in seconds and carry infinite resources, but they're already asking for nerfs. It's downright silly.

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DFA as the situational trump card is weakened (I missed a GP and had an experienced DFA survivor drop to their death right next to me with not a whisker between us, which would never had occurred before some of the recent changes)

 

He just had to miss or push the button to late, i saw in one of the recent compilations DFA connection without being directly above the hunter (more like 1m away). Missed DFA's happened to me even before "The Following", 95% od DFAs on me are succesfull in my games. Maybe it's just me, but it's a rare view to see a DFA miss and human being killed from fall damage (maybe i just have only super pros in my games).

 

I don't understand hookshot nerf and "no roll out of failed DFA attempt" (unless survivor is in swinging animation) reason though.

Edited by sanjyuubi

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:huh: That's... kind of what I was saying. There are claims here, but most of them don't appear to have happened. You're listing reasons for the Hunter's rise in strength, but there's no facts or background suggesting that those factors exist.

 

But there is even less negative proof: prove that they don't exist by playing survivor on PC and slaying some high level hunters in a 1v1.

 

I already have posted footage illustrating the opposite with the speed buffs somewhere.

 

Little confused by this as well. You even mention the BtZ glitches thread, where all the patch notes have been assembled, but none of them list these nerfs that you're mentioning. Do you think there's an anti-Human coverup where secret nerfs are being put into place?

 

:) It's enough to note here, that things are unclear enough for somebody, e.g. you, to raise the notion of conspiracy, which makes my point: information situation is unclear.

 

I play Human occasionally and haven't noticed any movement or DFA magnetism nerfs, and I barely use the Hook enough to notice that one.

 

Thanks for the info. Particularly stating that you barely use the hook. Everybody knowledgeable concerning tactical use of the thing on the other hand, knows what I am referring to.

 

Informing the community through the forum happens on a daily basis, so not sure where that one's coming from. Mike & Pete comment regularly, and when I first asked for the patch notes of the first-ever BtZ patch, they provided them to the community in an instant. Even made a video about it!

 

Why is plugging your vids relevant when it doesn't concern main topic of this thread? I never said "Mike and Pete never comment".

 

I don't want to seem rude, but the patch you're talking about removed a considerable amount of glitches and exploits from the game. That may be the reason some of your friends noticed the drop in win percentages.

 

 

Not some of my buddies. All of them. Best Hunters I know included. As for the low blow move of accusing without proof, I won't dignify that with some naive response. This quoted section is in clear breach of the community guideline's civility rule and is insulting. Our conversation ends here.

He just had to miss or push the button to late, i saw in one of the recent compilations DFA connection without being directly above the hunter (more like 1m away). Missed DFA's happened to me even before "The Following", 95% od DFAs on me are succesfull in my games. Maybe it's just me, but it's a rare view to see a DFA miss and human being killed from fall damage (maybe i just have only super pros in my games).

 

I don't understand hookshot nerf and "no roll out of failed DFA attempt" (unless survivor is in swinging animation) reason though.

 

There are nuances to these things that work their way into muscle memory, at least in a PC environment. Again, I'm just a mouthpiece for a small group of players, but we've seen tens of thousands of DFAs performed and there seems to have been a nerf on PC. I am not asking for faith here, just your experience. Thanks for the objective contribution. You mind reminding us of what platform you're on (sorry, I forgot).

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There are instances where specific changes were left out of the patch notes but Pete will always make sure to list everything here on the forums. If it's not listed here somewhere by Pete then it's most likely not an actual thing.

 

Again, I'm not trying to prove a point. Just laying it out there and wanting to listen. The fact that everybody comes out with the authority of absolute truth, without anybody knowing of any source to either invalidate or substantiate the claims is what it is.

 

Apologies, but this is not what this thread was for: Just what platform we're on, what change/lack thereof we perceive, any mechanical nuance necessary for comprehension, and the fun we're having is what this is about. Community feedback. We can start other threads nitpicking on grappling hook tactics or whatever.

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  • Hitboxes seem significantly smaller across all weapon types especially 2-handed weapons; this doesn't come up in discussions as often as it should  <--- Hitboxes have not changed. They are the same as always.
  • maligned Survivor sSense is weakened significantly by hunter speed and multiplication of lucky pounces  <--- Hunters ability to maintain momentum does make relying on minimap more difficult.  There are lots of in-world indicators to help once he gets close though.
  • DFA as the situational trump card is weakened (I missed a GP and had an experienced DFA survivor drop to their death right next to me with not a whisker between us, which would never had occurred before some of the recent changes) <--- only change to DFA was the commitment- if you miss you play a heavy land
  • grappling hook and survivor movement/agility have seen significant nerfs; while this may be justified by use of the buggy, the open world concept should leave it up to survivors whether they choose buggy or older forms of locomotion <--- only change was the increase in cooldown cost

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Well, I can't say I'm not biased. But it's definitely a turnaround. And Night Hunters aren't even handing it back in spades - we can't cheat. It's just becoming clear, for many, that the Hunter doesn't just roll over and die when he can't be one-shot. Humans can still max themselves out in seconds and carry infinite resources, but they're already asking for nerfs. It's downright silly.

Exactly. They feel the tiniest bit of losing and they want nerfs for the NH again and they want all this stuff to make them unstoppable again.

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  • Hitboxes seem significantly smaller across all weapon types especially 2-handed weapons; this doesn't come up in discussions as often as it should  <--- Hitboxes have not changed. They are the same as always.
  • maligned Survivor sSense is weakened significantly by hunter speed and multiplication of lucky pounces  <--- Hunters ability to maintain momentum does make relying on minimap more difficult.  There are lots of in-world indicators to help once he gets close though.
  • DFA as the situational trump card is weakened (I missed a GP and had an experienced DFA survivor drop to their death right next to me with not a whisker between us, which would never had occurred before some of the recent changes) <--- only change to DFA was the commitment- if you miss you play a heavy land
  • grappling hook and survivor movement/agility have seen significant nerfs; while this may be justified by use of the buggy, the open world concept should leave it up to survivors whether they choose buggy or older forms of locomotion <--- only change was the increase in cooldown cost

 

 

I'm not stating that I know what went on under the hood and prefaced this whole thread as speculation/conjecture.

 

I DO KNOW that it is less fun from survivor pov for all of us. After the same patch. And that my hunter is much stronger without having put in any work or time whatsoever.

 

Increasing grappling hook cooldown cancels out its most obvious tactical use, as it will be in a state of cooldown when the nest is reached (due to getting around and climbing on the way). This implies much less possibility to perform DFA as a survivor is unable to get into position to perform it. This cooldown in particular negates survivor ability to be "cunning" as Pete once put it, I believe. Because if you can't get up there in time, the tactical value of the attack itself is diminished across the entire game mode. Also, survivor grappling provides a weak spot for hunter to get in a free pounce, especially when arriving at a nest. With everything posted here, one fact emerges: most here don't play survivor (OR hunter concerning this) enough to see that that cooldown is a subtle trump card of the game mode, when it is calibrated correctly.

 

On this note, we did share some exploits with folk here concerning the hook; even with detailed instructions. We were ignored and the exploits patched, which is something to note for folks considering to offer their findings here.

 

All the feedback and evidence I'm trying to elicit here is to try and explain why things are less fun. This includes my play as hunter, as winning through tackle/GP spam is dull and negates the awesome game worlds that have been created. I can also pounce NPCs infinitely and the thought is just as uninspiring. Situational awareness took a huge hit with these changes, which dumbs down the game for both sides: cunning survivors AND clever hunters that are aware of them and want to be ahead by one step. Infinite tackles and speed don't compensate for this, even if I concede it is fun to be op hunter. Strategically and tactically, the game is more bland, even with all the fancy bells and whistles of late. Fat chance for change, I guess from your responses... and that we only realize the value of some things when they disappear.

 

Apologies, if any feathers are ruffled in the process and thanks for the clarifications, even if they apparently don't explain things. Thankfully, at least one survivor perspective here, independent of yours truly, knows with their first post what it is, that I'm trying to articulate and/or address here. I knew people here slay the messenger and I'm glad to stand corrected because I asked + opened my mouth anyway.

 

And I still don't see why bailing out- like in any parkour or extreme sports context- was removed. Survivors learned this skill leveling up in the base game. Survivor life these days is for these and other reasons: quite joyless because things are dulled in Mario Kart sense of saving everybody's face. It will breed more cheating because there is less to enjoy in the base game and it is peer to peer (automatic crossbows all over the place for example). In this thread I was accused of cheating and of wanting infinite nerfs obviously (both times the community guidelines are broken and who gets the red angry posts?). I have one reply to those two accusations: if I'm smart enough for one of them, why would I need the other?

Edited by Chickeninja

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In addition to the above impressions, the ability of a survivor to throw a combo kick, tackle, or punch, say in conjunction with a weapon swing has been eliminated.


 


This combo still works...it just doesn't result in a kill.  The Hunter will still have a bit of health.  There was nothing done to stop you from doing it though.

 

As for grapple... You can still use it twice in a row, 3 times if you pause for half a second in between throws.  The intention is that you need to think about how you use it now...similar to why we applied the cooldown to flares.  You need to weigh the costs of using grapple for gaining ground towards the nest or gaining tactical advantage on the Hunter.  It's a resource you have to manage.  

 

I am sorry to hear you aren't having as much fun.  Is it 1v1 you play or do you play with others?  It is definitely more difficult solo now...

 

The changes to the Survivors are the ones I've noted previously.  There are no sneaky changes....other than the revive time. ;)

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I'm not stating that I know what went on under the hood and prefaced this whole thread as speculation/conjecture.

 

Here's a list of all the changes from The Following update:

 

http://forum.techland.pl/topic/11511-be-the-zombie-mode-patch-notes/

 

As Pete mentioned before no other nerfs/buffs have been applied outside of this list. If you're experience anything outside of this I would chalk it up to either lag or hacks (on the PC side). I play on PC now, PS4 originally, and I haven't experienced any of things mentioned in the OP.

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In addition to the above impressions, the ability of a survivor to throw a combo kick, tackle, or punch, say in conjunction with a weapon swing has been eliminated.

 

This combo still works...it just doesn't result in a kill.  The Hunter will still have a bit of health.  There was nothing done to stop you from doing it though.
 
As for grapple... You can still use it twice in a row, 3 times if you pause for half a second in between throws.  The intention is that you need to think about how you use it now...similar to why we applied the cooldown to flares.  You need to weigh the costs of using grapple for gaining ground towards the nest or gaining tactical advantage on the Hunter.  It's a resource you have to manage.  
 
I am sorry to hear you aren't having as much fun.  Is it 1v1 you play or do you play with others?  It is definitely more difficult solo now...
 
The changes to the Survivors are the ones I've noted previously.  There are no sneaky changes....other than the revive time. ;)

 

It's fine Pete. The only real issue I had is how the survivors could become Pro in such little time and could make all the mistakes in the world, while it took NH's to become precise and perfect for nearly anything, and there were no room for mess-ups for us. Not even 1.

 

But I see techland is trying to make it balanced so the humans will still have to pay attention to how they use things and not use it recklessly.

Edited by RaceyStorm3124

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In addition to the above impressions, the ability of a survivor to throw a combo kick, tackle, or punch, say in conjunction with a weapon swing has been eliminated.

 

This combo still works...it just doesn't result in a kill. The Hunter will still have a bit of health. There was nothing done to stop you from doing it though.

 

As for grapple... You can still use it twice in a row, 3 times if you pause for half a second in between throws. The intention is that you need to think about how you use it now...similar to why we applied the cooldown to flares. You need to weigh the costs of using grapple for gaining ground towards the nest or gaining tactical advantage on the Hunter. It's a resource you have to manage.

 

I am sorry to hear you aren't having as much fun. Is it 1v1 you play or do you play with others? It is definitely more difficult solo now...

 

The changes to the Survivors are the ones I've noted previously. There are no sneaky changes....other than the revive time. ;)

The only problem with BTZ now is the revive time decrease... The night hunter shaving off 5 secs a swing? Bullshit! Try one... It's to the point now where if a teammate goes down, then that's it. It's cool if Night Hunters are going to start being catered to because they deserve it but really with the teamwork nerf? Edited by PaperPuppy

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i much prefer they fix so the 3rd party program no longer working or fix the vac, and of course fix the bugs before doing any balancing,

 

i just saw a youtube video of someone cheating so they skip the camo animation and using bow no reload, the thing is he only use the bow to kill the nest and when the hunter die,this kind of cheating not only give unfair advantage but it's hard to detect as a hunter.

 

also seem now most people are using explosive arrow to kill the nest as it's more faster than melee, and render the goon useless so when the hunter die you will definitely lose a nest now

 

and as pete have said, it's harder now to play in 1vs1, especially against a hunter who use instant GP after failed pounce glitch, and using tendril-ground speed glitch. using both of those glitch in my opinion give unfair advantage especially in 1vs1, shame the dev don't share the same view.

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In addition to the above impressions, the ability of a survivor to throw a combo kick, tackle, or punch, say in conjunction with a weapon swing has been eliminated.

 

This combo still works...it just doesn't result in a kill.  The Hunter will still have a bit of health.  There was nothing done to stop you from doing it though.
 
As for grapple... You can still use it twice in a row, 3 times if you pause for half a second in between throws.  The intention is that you need to think about how you use it now...similar to why we applied the cooldown to flares.  You need to weigh the costs of using grapple for gaining ground towards the nest or gaining tactical advantage on the Hunter.  It's a resource you have to manage.  
 
I am sorry to hear you aren't having as much fun.  Is it 1v1 you play or do you play with others?  It is definitely more difficult solo now...
 
The changes to the Survivors are the ones I've noted previously.  There are no sneaky changes....other than the revive time. ;)

 

 

Thanks for the clear answer.

 

Note: I edited out the passage Pete quoted as it does nothing to clarify the point. It's just another example of the large tapestry of limitations that I feel constrict game play and make it less interesting. The thing that makes games like Go or Chess fascinating is situational awareness on both tactical and strategic levels. The reason it's difficult to give advice in those games, is that every situation requires particular care and attention to detail to find the strongest moves. If one side is op, those games loose their sense because the best move is always a relative thing, which is why universal prescriptions fail.

 

That's why buffing hunter in this sense AND nerfing survivor to this extent produces less interesting game play: the tackle/GP combo, speed, nerfing survivor ability measures etc. all lead to one outcome => only queens on the board dominating from one side that can do almost anything at any time regardless of the situation in the game world. It is simple thought experiment to guess who will win. And I say this as somebody who's secretly enjoyed rampaging and dominating others with their hunter. But this has a dull because more predictable quality, as if Hunter dominance were some officially sanctioned cheat, the result is obvious and trivial: I play all sizes of groups both as survivor and hunter, and 1v1 to 1v2 suffer because of the sum effect of these changes (in 1v2 any hunter, yours truly included can break up most formations; due to disconnect in spawn rhythm/locations, its like playing two 1v1s for me mostly) with 1v3 and 1v4 having a bit more margin for experience to count, but not much. 

 

As stated in the beginning: this is opinion only. I have no desire to convince anybody and was/am curious for feedback on how much fun people are having in light of these changes. Thanks to those that have/do contributed, even when and if we disagree.

 

I guess the cheating will continue or grow, due in part to this situation. A cheater cheats in this context because they falsely believe that a win/score/rank matters. People who can't stop with denouncing them believe they have authority over others, which is lamer than a confused cheater looking for recognition... the reason for this is that people bought a game (where we can debate where or what an unfair advantage is) and not the authority to be police (no debate; pure judgement).

 

Does anybody here know what values are modified when, for rubber band measures and conditions for them to take effect? Thanks to Pete for the heads up on "no sneaky changes", but I'd still like to know if anybody has info here.

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especially against a hunter who use instant GP after failed pounce glitch, and using tendril-ground speed glitch.

 

Why do you think it's a glitch, i remeber Pete saying something about early ground pound charge.

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don't remember pete said about early gp charge,

beside it skip animation

try looking it like human who can skip failed drop kick animation and hit you instead.

 

 

 

Why do you think it's a glitch, i remeber Pete saying something about early ground pound charge.

 

 

about rubber banding, i also ask the condition, but pete didn't answer me,

 

here one of his post about rubberbanding

 

DFAs, dropkicks, gun accuracy etc. are not affected at all.  The things that are affected are respawn times,  spit regen, and uv light damage amount.  These all scale to deault values as you pull even in the match so there is absolutely nothing gained by falling behind to receive buffs that go away when the match gets close.  We are going to be adjusting he amounts and how they scale though.  It can be too aggressive in certain situations right now.

 

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Using a ground pound right after a failed pounce is intentional. It was always possible but before survivors would be immune to damage because the devs said the game mechanic was not fun for survivors. However now it's changed and survivors will take damage from a ground pound if they rush in from an interrupted pounce.

 

If you're saying they ground pound before even touching the ground or something to that effect then yeah that's strange but other than that this is fully intentional.

Edited by jcks

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really? is this one of the sneaky change that chickeninja talking about? as i don't see it in changelog

 

Using a ground pound right after a failed pounce is intentional. It was always possible but before survivors would be immune to damage because the devs said the game mechanic was not fun for survivors. However now it's changed and survivors will take damage from a ground pound if they rush in from an interrupted pounce.

If you're saying they ground pound before even touching the ground or something to that effect then yeah that's strange but other than that this is fully intentional.

 

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really? is this one of the sneaky change that chickeninja talking about? as i don't see it in changelog

 

What it was like before:

 

 

http://forum.techland.pl/topic/10030-ground-pound-sucks/

 

What the devs had to say about it:

 

http://forum.techland.pl/topic/9729-broken-gp/#entry30053

 

And here is when it was changed:

 

http://forum.techland.pl/topic/10324-dev-request-detailed-be-the-zombie-patch-review/#entry33408

 

 

All of this was almost a year ago. Being able to ground pound after interrupted pounce has been possible since May of last year and nothing changed in the most recent update.

 

There are no "sneaky" or behind the scenes updates. Everything that is changed is clearly documented on this forum by either Pete or some other developer. 

Edited by jcks

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hmm that changelog only said that they fix GP not connecting after a failed pounce, but the GP after failed pounce i'm talking about is when the hunter skip failed pounce animation and immediately go to GP. similar but different issue

 

beside i agree with the dev word here "As fun as it might be for a hunter to chain a failed pounce into a ground pound every time, it would be abusive and no fun for the Survivor.  " and that's what happening now, as the hunter can spit which 100% will land when the hunter goes to pounce, and immediately use the glitch to land the GP, so both the spit and the GP will land and the survivor is screwed

 

 

What it was like before:

 

 

http://forum.techland.pl/topic/10030-ground-pound-sucks/

 

What the devs had to say about it:

 

http://forum.techland.pl/topic/9729-broken-gp/#entry30053

 

And here is when it was changed:

 

http://forum.techland.pl/topic/10324-dev-request-detailed-be-the-zombie-patch-review/#entry33408

 

 

All of this was almost a year ago. Being able to ground pound after interrupted pounce has been possible since May of last year and nothing changed in the most recent update.

 

There are no "sneaky" or behind the scenes updates. Everything that is changed is clearly documented on this forum by either Pete or some other developer. 

Edited by Nova Scotia

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