TheElusiveMoose

Opinions Please! Fixing The Nh Gamemode

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I've posted this in a few forums in hopes that people might respond to give their opinion on how to fix the night hunter game mode, but no one has.  I'm hoping to get some input because I think these are legitimate options to help balance the game without making one side more powerful than the other.  I know this is a long post, but I would REALLY like your input.


 


I believe I've targeted a few problems that make playing as the NH against experienced human players VERY difficult, and given solutions that don't make impossible for newer or less experienced human players.  I don't believe that ALL of these mechanics need to be added to make the game balanced, but I believe that some can change the dynamic enough (while others just make the game more fun and give it more play-ability)


 


Problem: Most good human players have mastered the "complete" dodge, (can dodge pounce, tackle, ground-pound, AND spits) leaving the NH vulnerable and without any good attacks to take down the enemy.


Solution: Give failed pounces a damage amount.  This would give you SOME advantage for sneaking up behind and grabbing them quickly (even if its blocked in the end), and I think its not unfair to say if you do that 3 times and they haven't healed that you can knock them unconscious like 3 successful tackles.  This also gives the NH an attack that CANNOT be blocked for once.  Much like the drop-kick or death-from-above on the human side, this would do high damage, but require multiple contacts to kill.


 


Problem: If you are playing an experienced player or ANY player if there are 2+ people in the lobby, coming in close to kill someone can often turn the hunter into the hunted.  It doesn't take long after a failed pounce/tackle/ground-pound to UV the energy away from a NH making it impossible to escape and keep going.  This doesn't even make sense because the ENTIRE game mode is based off the fact that the humans are meant to be scared of the NH and something they try to push away while they complete the objective, not something that is worth finding and killing with their UV-melee combos to destroy the nest (which at this point I think is the most viable strategy for winning as the human).


Solution: Make the NH jump and/or sprint (which is much higher and faster than humans) immune to low-energy.  Especially on this one I would like your input.  I believe that with this game mechanic you can actually do a lot to nerf the NH.  Players have the chance to stay alive more and live to fight another day, but vulnerable enough they need to retreat and recharge.  This might make going from no-energy to low energy a longer wait time, during which spits don't regenerate, and you have to stay still to make it happen (much like how the health regeneration feature works on the NH now).


 


Problem: Spits are hard to land, especially on maps where side jumping is very easy because its very open (the country) and where many things get in your way vertically (the slums and old town).  With the recharge speed the way it is (which I think is fair seeing as TOO quick recharge would make the NH more powerful) this makes it difficult to use these to actually land, which IF you do they have safety nets to protect themselves (ie-get high to avoid bombers and throw down flares to prevent pounce).


Solution: Make spits act like mines.  If you drop a small colorless spit bomb-trap that doesn't explode until a human gets near (or forces it to explode via weapons).  This gives the NH a new opportunity for stealth.  Lay a few mine traps in the site and wait for the enemy to get near to attack.  This can also give the NH SOME time to recover if they die and the humans get on the nest.  I think they should be hard to see (ie-not a glowing green/pink/orange blob) so you actually have to pay attention and approach the nest with caution.  Since its already fairly quick to destroy the nest (1 death of the NH = 1 nest) I think forcing the approach with more caution is fair.


 


Problem: The buggy is impossible to defend against.  If you do get lucky enough to grab it (which I think is fair how difficult it is, since the map is large and humans need to be fast) you have to wait a while before you can press melee enough times to actually ground pound them out.  9 times out of 10 human players simply jump out of their car and let it roll away and then shoot you as you are stuck on the buggy trying to press the "get off" button.


Solution:  Make buggy attacks the normal melee and make the "escape car" button more like a ground pound, where you must hold it to use it.  Normal melee is weak, so you wouldn't kill them off the bat unless they're low health, and AT LEAST you can do some damage before they jump out of their car.  This makes it more like how volitales attack your buggy in game as well. 


 


Problem: New Legendary skill trees make health higher, healing nearly instant, and melee attacks more deadly.  This makes putting together complete kill-combos nearly impossible, and ANY misses (eg-tackle or ground-pound, or if you're close and have to melee) a death sentence for good players, and a way to push the NH away for beginners.


Solution: Make close-up melee attacks slightly weaker, but with a poison/bleed effect.  This gives the NH an option to "hit-and-run" and have SOME sort of benefit from it, rather than "sneak around and smash-in to finish" which is the current logic.  I think this makes the NH more feared, but also means that if the NH plays up close he is more vulnerable to attacks.  The bleed effect can counter the instant heal since you cannot heal while you are bleeding out, or the effects negate and you don't change in health at all.


  • This also helps counter many human complaints about "ground-pound or tackle spam" because the NH has more viable options of attack.
  • No longer can the humans turn the hunt so easily, which keeps the game true to the game mode.
  • Many of these changes can add new strategies for the NH which can counter the current human strategies.  This gives more dynamic to the game play forcing the humans to adapt RATHER than the basic "dodge NH attack, kill NH, destroy nest" mentality.
  • It also would increase the lifespan of the game mode.  I feel like the only people I run into now as the NH are new players who bought the game off a steam sale or seasoned players who have played since the beginning and are impossible to defeat.

I think small changes like this would make the game more fair without making it more difficult for inexperienced players.  Frankly, I think these types of changes could make the game more interesting rather than a dodge and pound fest by experienced players.  Mines would make approaching nests much more dangerous, but surrounding zombies would force you to do something.  Pounce damage can force you to watch your back more to catch the NH BEFORE he initiates the pounce, and also gives the NH a bonus for catching the humans off guard.  Jeep attacks would be more frightening since you can actually get hit pretty hard if the NH catches the jeep (cause I think its already hard enough to get that lucky land, only to have them bail before you can smash anything).  Maybe you guys can see a flaw with some of my ideas, but I think its time that they added mutation lvl 4 and 5 and gave the NH some new tricks to fight these good players.


Edited by TheElusiveMoose

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I could not agree more. The hunter has become way under-powered. It seems every match I play, it's very one sided. In favor of the humans. Those sounded like great ideas. I liked em. If I could add a couple...the spits need to be individualized. I.e. if you use both your horde spits, you should still have the option of using an acid spit, for one. A steroid injection for health would be nice. Just given the new 250 levels for the survivors, it's become almost impossible to execute a kill. Also, in addition to having the sense suppressor spit, why not have a cloak of some kind, that would make the NH invisible on radar for a set period of time? I also have thought about this. I really like the NH gamemode, it's just something needs to be done with Hunter, to instill that happy medium, and give us a fighting chance.

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I like the damage taken by dodging, maybe it will not be applied for NH lvl 1 and 2 but at least night hunter lvl 3 should have this as passive perk since its body its covered with spikes, or how about this: "Be able to bath in our own acid spit" so every time survivors dodge they take damage as if they where on an acid puddle, 4 dodge and they would be done.

 

I would also add new skills, and 15-20 seconds before match start to select them, like many games does.

 

Why?

 

Let me explain my theory of why there is a lack of NH players in the game, because there is not customable NHs, because its limited "arsenal" of spit attacks, there is only 4, limited spits leads to limited people to play as NH, while players have machetes (melee), knives (fast melee), two handed wps (strong melee), guns, riffles, bows, and crossbows (range) flares, uv light,mines, grenades,molotov, medkits (meds are ok but whats a bummer its when they insta heal partners and in normal mode) now multiply everything of that for each survivor in the match. NH should have its own variety of attacks, and what about cloaks? for example in old town horde spit becomes totally useless (for experience I can say that), NH players  should have the liberty to say, "ok I dont need horde spit so gonna change it to toxic cloak", or in the country side, "ok while im in the grass gotta use decoy spit (create another hunter on the radar) and flack on the other side", whats this mode lacks its variation and force you like : "take these spits and use your creativity", everything that you can be in every game aka "supporter, ranger, healer and warrior" you can be in this mode but as a survivor, while NH range attacks sucks and close combat is weak and dodgeable, in fact night hunter had create a new class in game history I call it, "The SniffAssCrack Class for those players who wants to create an ulcera in 15 minutes!", BUT WAIT it has THIS INSTA-KILL ATTACK! but only if you meet the perfect conditions that its fking nearly imposible in pro matches.

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I like your ideas and you absolutely list valid complaints. But I'm interested to hear what kind of players these changes are aimed for - casuals or "veterans"? My first game of today was against 3 ultimate survivors, and I played really bad compared to my usual matches. Lost with 3 lives left. I can't help to feel that the changes you suggest would make it nearly impossible for Humans Night Hunters at a high rank to lose against highly ranked Humans. 

 

Here's a video I managed to record from 4 days ago against an Ultimate Survivor and a Dominant (previously Ultimate Survivor).

 

And as you'll see I'm playing FAR from perfect.

 

Hitting spits aren't that difficult if you follow up with a pounce or tackle that forces them to stay at a position.

Edited by Amberg22

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I like your idea better than the op idea

 

 


I would also add new skills, and 15-20 seconds before match start to select them, like many games does.

 

 

 

glad to see a hunter that didn't agree with another hunter and even post their video to back it up,

as most the op problem it's not really a problem as there are way for a hunter to handle it, just like you say, there are many move that a hunter can do to make their spit unavoidable even if they are dodging spam and in your video you even use most of them, and in open area, it also give a human disadvantage too as there is not many thing to climb to avoid the bomber

 

and the hunter here really need to test the legendary skill, as it doesn't make the human melee weapon more deadly, as it still required them to 3 hit with one handed, and 2 hit with two handed weapon. even if they have their legend level maxed or not. it's the same as buggy grab, it still take 3 hit to kill a full health survivor or 1 or 2 hit if their health is not full and sometime you only need 1 hit to kill the passenger even if their health is full in a buggy don't know if it's a glitch or intended. and you don't need to get lucky to grab a buggy since they increased the distance to 10 meter from 5 meter to grab them in the latest patch

 

a bit off topic,

 

but i would like to know how the survivor could handle a ground pound spam you use later in the match, as even if the survivor dodging you can still jump them and land another ground pound.

 

and how to revive a human if the hunter land a toxic spit on top of them.

 

also couple days ago, i faced a hunter who's new but manage to threw me off and  kill me twice using all claw attack, yes all claw attack with no tackle or GP,  since the hunter claw range has much more range than human melee range, and dodging them doesn't even help as the claw will still reach me, and there is almost no chance to heal since you can't heal while dodging, i don't know if the range is bugged or not, but for now the hunter could incorporated those claw with some your combo and help you kill the human.

 

 

I like your ideas and you absolutely list valid complaints. But I'm interested to hear what kind of players these changes are aimed for - casuals or "veterans"? My first game of today was against 3 ultimate survivors, and I played really bad compared to my usual matches. Lost with 3 lives left. I can't help to feel that the changes you suggest would make it nearly impossible for Humans at high ranks to lose against a highly ranked NH. 

 

Here's a video I managed to record from 4 days ago against an Ultimate Survivor and a Dominant (previously Ultimate Survivor).

 

And as you'll see I'm playing FAR from perfect.

 

Hitting spits aren't that difficult if you follow up with a pounce or tackle that forces them to stay at a position.

Edited by Nova Scotia

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I like your ideas and you absolutely list valid complaints. But I'm interested to hear what kind of players these changes are aimed for - casuals or "veterans"? My first game of today was against 3 ultimate survivors, and I played really bad compared to my usual matches. Lost with 3 lives left. I can't help to feel that the changes you suggest would make it nearly impossible for Humans at high ranks to lose against a highly ranked NH.

These changes are aimed to balance the game at higher skill levels WITHOUT making it too difficult for casual or beginners to fight the night hunter. And I think these changes add strategic strength to the NH, so if you think these would make it impossible for high level humans to lose wouldn't that make the current status in favor of the humans?

 

My general idea with these changes is less to make the NH a stronger fighter that can run in and do damage, but rather give him more options for attack strategies.

 

Here's a video I managed to record from 4 days ago against an Ultimate Survivor and a Dominant (previously Ultimate Survivor).

 

And as you'll see I'm playing FAR from perfect.

 

Hitting spits aren't that difficult if you follow up with a pounce or tackle that forces them to stay at a position.

I would agree that you are a solid player, but even your video in the game you won stands to show that the NH needs improvement. (which if you being the best of us shows need for change, how does that play out for the rest of us as the NH?) I tried to write down my own stats of the game only to find that there were ones given at the end. Mine were slightly different, but the general idea is the same.

  • You hit around 50% of your spits, and even then 2 of your spit kills come because of a beginner mistake (minute 12:45).  MOST of your spit lands REQUIRED a follow up attack in order for them to land, ignoring the fact that many of those landed spits led to no benefit.  Some could be argued that the required follow up pounce/tackle put you more in harms way than led to an effective attack.
  • You hit 20% of your pounces and 38% of your tackles.  Most of these misses came from the necessity to follow up a spit, but that necessity puts you into an awkward position of charging into the humans when that shouldn't be your strategy.  It was made VERY clear to me both when I bought this game and was trying to level up that the general rule for the NH is DO NOT GET CLOSE.  The NH is supposed to be a stealthy, quick, and powerful sneak attack character, not a smash-in-and-spit-everywhere-then-fail-a-bunch-of-attacks-to-hope-one-spit-lands character.
  • You had a successful close encounter rate of about 1:4 (or 1 success in every 5 encounters).  I counted success as close encounters that ended with them dying or being worse off AND didn't require you to flee for your life.  Seeing as 2/4 attacks require you to be close (tackle/ground-pound), I would say that you need to either strengthen the distance attacks (spit/pounce) to make up close encounters a worse strategy OR strengthen close encounter attacks so that you can increase the success of up close encounters.  (remediated by giving failed pounce a damage amount, spit mines, and poison claws for "hit-and-run" style attacks rather than crash in, ground pound, run.
  • I wouldn't call these guys in the video experienced players, as I have found rank often is misleading.  You get 2 free kills from people abandoning, 2 free kills from a mistake of not jumping higher to avoid bombers for 1 second (minute 12:46), minute 2:40 shows a human just dancing around when he could've been doing something useful (ie-shooting with arrows/guns/grenades) or pushing toward to revive, and NEVER have I seen an experienced player lose so much time as the humans did in stretches like 8:13-8:56, 9:19-10:13, and 13:42-14:20.  I'm sorry, but in my games if I have to wait to recharge health/spits that long, they make me suffer with a nest.  That was almost 2 full minutes lost.
  • Your necessity to spam ground pound towards the end shows the uselessness of other NH attacks.  Not to mention they have NO skill at back-jumping away from the ground pound to avoid it, which I have encountered many times already.

My point isn't that you're a bad Night Hunter.  I think its just the opposite.  If we look at the good night hunters such as yourself we can see that the night hunter strategy is fairly simple, making it predictable.  Adding new strategies (spit mines and failed pounces) while being able to counter others (instant heal and buggy bail) give the night hunter new tools WITHOUT hurting new players.  Basic play styles like "approach the nest with caution" and "keep the UV light ready to stop the NH from getting close" still apply, so new players don't feel the change as much.  If they can't block the pounce, they would die anyway.  Against experienced players, you at least come out with SOMETHING other than a failed pounce and no energy.

 

I like your idea better than the op idea

  

glad to see a hunter that didn't agree with another hunter and even post their video to back it up,

as most the op problem it's not really a problem as there are way for a hunter to handle it, just like you say, there are many move that a hunter can do to make their spit unavoidable even if they are dodging spam and in your video you even use most of them, and in open area, it also give a human disadvantage too as there is not many thing to climb to avoid the bomber

I hope that ALL night hunters and human players give opinions here because I believe the game mode CAN be fixed without making one side OP at any experience level.  My hope is that new players can fight the hunter and learn to get better, while experienced players can't just rely on quick button mashing to dodge attacks and force the hunter to the defensive.  I want to make the game mode more tactical and frightening for ALL human players, not just beginners.  

 

and the hunter here really need to test the legendary skill, as it doesn't make the human melee weapon more deadly, as it still required them to 3 hit with one handed, and 2 hit with two handed weapon. even if they have their legend level maxed or not. it's the same as buggy grab, it still take 3 hit to kill a full health survivor or 1 or 2 hit if their health is not full and sometime you only need 1 hit to kill the passenger even if their health is full in a buggy don't know if it's a glitch or intended. and you don't need to get lucky to grab a buggy since they increased the distance to 10 meter from 5 meter to grab them in the latest patch

 

I disagree that the legendary skill trees haven't help the humans.  More health, more damage from ranged/throwing weapons, higher resting miminum health, and faster health regen speed have ALL given the humans a slight edge, whereas the NH got nothing there.  With the introduction of the buggy, even 10m and quick fingers to press the grab button can be difficult for new NH.  It took me quite some time to get my first grab, only to realize I had to mash melee to attack.  After I attacked I realized the human bailed out.  If you have to get EVEN 1 hit to kill people in the buggy it would be nearly impossible if the humans are paying any sort of attention.  Jumping out of the buggy is nothing compared to waiting 3 seconds before an attack is delivered.  

 

a bit off topic,

 

but i would like to know how the survivor could handle a ground pound spam you use later in the match, as even if the survivor dodging you can still jump them and land another ground pound.

 

and how to revive a human if the hunter land a toxic spit on top of them.

 

also couple days ago, i faced a hunter who's new but manage to threw me off and  kill me twice using all claw attack, yes all claw attack with no tackle or GP,  since the hunter claw range has much more range than human melee range, and dodging them doesn't even help as the claw will still reach me, and there is almost no chance to heal since you can't heal while dodging, i don't know if the range is bugged or not, but for now the hunter could incorporated those claw with some your combo and help you kill the human.

 

Your best bet to handle ground pound spam is to jump back/sideways and whip out distance weapons.  Whether that be a shotgun or explosive throwing devices, the time it takes for the NH to cancel the GP you can do a LOT of damage.  If you have a teammate with a UV light you can likely kill them.

 

To revive humans in toxic spit you can wait for it to end or I'm pretty sure you can heal yourself (let the heal start before running in) and then revive while you're healing.  It takes around 6-7 seconds for toxic spit to kill you and only around 3-4 to revive a teammate.

 

And if they had that long of a range with their claws I might check your internet connection.  I've had a few matches where it seemed like they were getting attacks MUCH farther than they should, and that was because my connection was bad (I had to check it on other games)

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Actually the claw range is very far and can even hit through very small openings, but it's not a viable tactic to walk backwards while clawing as they'll still catch up to you and kill you.

 

And if a Night Hunter is trying to run forward and claw you use your dropkick to gain some space and heal or you can use a Heavy weapon and tackle.

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it was probably typo, what i think he meant is it will make the human impossible to win against a hunter

 

and his point with his video is to show even when he's not perfect aka made mistake it is still possible to win against high ranked survivor in 2vs1 or 3vs1. as some of the hunter here are saying it's impossible for a hunter to win if there are more human players.

 

i don't know why you call it a beginner mistake or not jumping high enough when they both die from the horde spit, as they are both on top of a bus which should have enough to avoid bomber, and the 1st human die because he is standing near the edge of the bus. which because he just finish climbing the bus and see the hunter and he hit the hunter while the bomber hit the bus, so it's a mistake that he didn't go to the middle of the bus but i definitely wont called it a beginner mistake. and the second human we didn't see how he die, probably because he made the same mistake while trying to revive his teammate. and i don't understand by your comment that he didn't jump high enough.

 

and the free kills from abandoning doesn't make them not experienced players, they just gave up too early, which is why sometime i hate when unknown players are joining btz game and quit in the middle of the match

 

also i don't think the btz need to be fixed, as it's balanced enough for me, except they do need to fix the BUGS & Cheaters and maybe some little buff to hunter in 4vs1

 

i never said the legendary doesn't give more edge to human, what i said is, it don't give the human extra damage to a hunter, as it still require the same number of hit whether they are 0 legend or max legend, same as guns or throwing weapons. and where you said the NH doesn't get nothing is also wrong, as the NH did get more buff in the following update, you can see it here http://forum.techland.pl/topic/11511-be-the-zombie-mode-patch-notes/ , even the latest patch keep giving buff to NH.

 

and here the quote from the dev regarding legendary skill

 

All weapons are scaled and the legend boosts should have absolutely no effect on nests or the Hunter in BTZ....  The only nests that might get one-shot by a fully leveled legend player are the story mode nests in The Following.

 

also regarding the human health in legendary level, this is why i said the hunter here need to test it out, or the dev can confirm this, as i think the hunter still need the same GP hit / tackle hit to kill a survivor regardless their legend level, do note i never really paying close attention to it but it feels the same and if the buggy grab require the same number of hit to kill a human then it should also the same for GP/Tackle. so someone here test it out :D

 

dodging for mid air ground pound spam is a lot of harder than you think, especially if the hunter can land it correctly, as one dodge backward will still hit the human
 

and for toxic spit, you can't wait for the toxic to end as the toxic spit have longer duration than the human revive time especially with the latest patch where they reduce it to 15 sec, and even if you manage to revive them without killing yourself, the human will die again because he only have 25 health when revived.

 

same as toxic spit in the nest, that forced you to use range weapon which make it harder to kill the nest especially when the hunter is near.

 

yes lag can cause the claw show much more farther but the claw is indeed have much more range than human melee weapon.

 

These changes are aimed to balance the game at higher skill levels WITHOUT making it too difficult for casual or beginners to fight the night hunter. And I think these changes add strategic strength to the NH, so if you think these would make it impossible for high level humans to lose wouldn't that make the current status in favor of the humans?

My general idea with these changes is less to make the NH a stronger fighter that can run in and do damage, but rather give him more options for attack strategies.
 


I would agree that you are a solid player, but even your video in the game you won stands to show that the NH needs improvement. (which if you being the best of us shows need for change, how does that play out for the rest of us as the NH?) I tried to write down my own stats of the game only to find that there were ones given at the end. Mine were slightly different, but the general idea is the same.

  • You hit around 50% of your spits, and even then 2 of your spit kills come because of a beginner mistake (minute 12:45).  MOST of your spit lands REQUIRED a follow up attack in order for them to land, ignoring the fact that many of those landed spits led to no benefit.  Some could be argued that the required follow up pounce/tackle put you more in harms way than led to an effective attack.
  • You hit 20% of your pounces and 38% of your tackles.  Most of these misses came from the necessity to follow up a spit, but that necessity puts you into an awkward position of charging into the humans when that shouldn't be your strategy.  It was made VERY clear to me both when I bought this game and was trying to level up that the general rule for the NH is DO NOT GET CLOSE.  The NH is supposed to be a stealthy, quick, and powerful sneak attack character, not a smash-in-and-spit-everywhere-then-fail-a-bunch-of-attacks-to-hope-one-spit-lands character.
  • You had a successful close encounter rate of about 1:4 (or 1 success in every 5 encounters).  I counted success as close encounters that ended with them dying or being worse off AND didn't require you to flee for your life.  Seeing as 2/4 attacks require you to be close (tackle/ground-pound), I would say that you need to either strengthen the distance attacks (spit/pounce) to make up close encounters a worse strategy OR strengthen close encounter attacks so that you can increase the success of up close encounters.  (remediated by giving failed pounce a damage amount, spit mines, and poison claws for "hit-and-run" style attacks rather than crash in, ground pound, run.
  • I wouldn't call these guys in the video experienced players, as I have found rank often is misleading.  You get 2 free kills from people abandoning, 2 free kills from a mistake of not jumping higher to avoid bombers for 1 second (minute 12:46), minute 2:40 shows a human just dancing around when he could've been doing something useful (ie-shooting with arrows/guns/grenades) or pushing toward to revive, and NEVER have I seen an experienced player lose so much time as the humans did in stretches like 8:13-8:56, 9:19-10:13, and 13:42-14:20.  I'm sorry, but in my games if I have to wait to recharge health/spits that long, they make me suffer with a nest.  That was almost 2 full minutes lost.
  • Your necessity to spam ground pound towards the end shows the uselessness of other NH attacks.  Not to mention they have NO skill at back-jumping away from the ground pound to avoid it, which I have encountered many times already.

My point isn't that you're a bad Night Hunter.  I think its just the opposite.  If we look at the good night hunters such as yourself we can see that the night hunter strategy is fairly simple, making it predictable.  Adding new strategies (spit mines and failed pounces) while being able to counter others (instant heal and buggy bail) give the night hunter new tools WITHOUT hurting new players.  Basic play styles like "approach the nest with caution" and "keep the UV light ready to stop the NH from getting close" still apply, so new players don't feel the change as much.  If they can't block the pounce, they would die anyway.  Against experienced players, you at least come out with SOMETHING other than a failed pounce and no energy.
 


I hope that ALL night hunters and human players give opinions here because I believe the game mode CAN be fixed without making one side OP at any experience level.  My hope is that new players can fight the hunter and learn to get better, while experienced players can't just rely on quick button mashing to dodge attacks and force the hunter to the defensive.  I want to make the game mode more tactical and frightening for ALL human players, not just beginners.  
 

 
I disagree that the legendary skill trees haven't help the humans.  More health, more damage from ranged/throwing weapons, higher resting miminum health, and faster health regen speed have ALL given the humans a slight edge, whereas the NH got nothing there.  With the introduction of the buggy, even 10m and quick fingers to press the grab button can be difficult for new NH.  It took me quite some time to get my first grab, only to realize I had to mash melee to attack.  After I attacked I realized the human bailed out.  If you have to get EVEN 1 hit to kill people in the buggy it would be nearly impossible if the humans are paying any sort of attention.  Jumping out of the buggy is nothing compared to waiting 3 seconds before an attack is delivered.  
 

 

Your best bet to handle ground pound spam is to jump back/sideways and whip out distance weapons.  Whether that be a shotgun or explosive throwing devices, the time it takes for the NH to cancel the GP you can do a LOT of damage.  If you have a teammate with a UV light you can likely kill them.

 

To revive humans in toxic spit you can wait for it to end or I'm pretty sure you can heal yourself (let the heal start before running in) and then revive while you're healing.  It takes around 6-7 seconds for toxic spit to kill you and only around 3-4 to revive a teammate.

 

And if they had that long of a range with their claws I might check your internet connection.  I've had a few matches where it seemed like they were getting attacks MUCH farther than they should, and that was because my connection was bad (I had to check it on other games)

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I've posted this in a few forums in hopes that people might respond to give their opinion on how to fix the night hunter game mode, but no one has.  I'm hoping to get some input because I think these are legitimate options to help balance the game without making one side more powerful than the other.  I know this is a long post, but I would REALLY like your input.

 

I believe I've targeted a few problems that make playing as the NH against experienced human players VERY difficult, and given solutions that don't make impossible for newer or less experienced human players.  I don't believe that ALL of these mechanics need to be added to make the game balanced, but I believe that some can change the dynamic enough (while others just make the game more fun and give it more play-ability)

 

Problem: Most good human players have mastered the "complete" dodge, (can dodge pounce, tackle, ground-pound, AND spits) leaving the NH vulnerable and without any good attacks to take down the enemy.

Solution: Give failed pounces a damage amount.  This would give you SOME advantage for sneaking up behind and grabbing them quickly (even if its blocked in the end), and I think its not unfair to say if you do that 3 times and they haven't healed that you can knock them unconscious like 3 successful tackles.  This also gives the NH an attack that CANNOT be blocked for once.  Much like the drop-kick or death-from-above on the human side, this would do high damage, but require multiple contacts to kill.

 

Problem: If you are playing an experienced player or ANY player if there are 2+ people in the lobby, coming in close to kill someone can often turn the hunter into the hunted.  It doesn't take long after a failed pounce/tackle/ground-pound to UV the energy away from a NH making it impossible to escape and keep going.  This doesn't even make sense because the ENTIRE game mode is based off the fact that the humans are meant to be scared of the NH and something they try to push away while they complete the objective, not something that is worth finding and killing with their UV-melee combos to destroy the nest (which at this point I think is the most viable strategy for winning as the human).

Solution: Make the NH jump and/or sprint (which is much higher and faster than humans) immune to low-energy.  Especially on this one I would like your input.  I believe that with this game mechanic you can actually do a lot to nerf the NH.  Players have the chance to stay alive more and live to fight another day, but vulnerable enough they need to retreat and recharge.  This might make going from no-energy to low energy a longer wait time, during which spits don't regenerate, and you have to stay still to make it happen (much like how the health regeneration feature works on the NH now).

 

Problem: Spits are hard to land, especially on maps where side jumping is very easy because its very open (the country) and where many things get in your way vertically (the slums and old town).  With the recharge speed the way it is (which I think is fair seeing as TOO quick recharge would make the NH more powerful) this makes it difficult to use these to actually land, which IF you do they have safety nets to protect themselves (ie-get high to avoid bombers and throw down flares to prevent pounce).

Solution: Make spits act like mines.  If you drop a small colorless spit bomb-trap that doesn't explode until a human gets near (or forces it to explode via weapons).  This gives the NH a new opportunity for stealth.  Lay a few mine traps in the site and wait for the enemy to get near to attack.  This can also give the NH SOME time to recover if they die and the humans get on the nest.  I think they should be hard to see (ie-not a glowing green/pink/orange blob) so you actually have to pay attention and approach the nest with caution.  Since its already fairly quick to destroy the nest (1 death of the NH = 1 nest) I think forcing the approach with more caution is fair.

 

Problem: The buggy is impossible to defend against.  If you do get lucky enough to grab it (which I think is fair how difficult it is, since the map is large and humans need to be fast) you have to wait a while before you can press melee enough times to actually ground pound them out.  9 times out of 10 human players simply jump out of their car and let it roll away and then shoot you as you are stuck on the buggy trying to press the "get off" button.

Solution:  Make buggy attacks the normal melee and make the "escape car" button more like a ground pound, where you must hold it to use it.  Normal melee is weak, so you wouldn't kill them off the bat unless they're low health, and AT LEAST you can do some damage before they jump out of their car.  This makes it more like how volitales attack your buggy in game as well. 

 

Problem: New Legendary skill trees make health higher, healing nearly instant, and melee attacks more deadly.  This makes putting together complete kill-combos nearly impossible, and ANY misses (eg-tackle or ground-pound, or if you're close and have to melee) a death sentence for good players, and a way to push the NH away for beginners.

Solution: Make close-up melee attacks slightly weaker, but with a poison/bleed effect.  This gives the NH an option to "hit-and-run" and have SOME sort of benefit from it, rather than "sneak around and smash-in to finish" which is the current logic.  I think this makes the NH more feared, but also means that if the NH plays up close he is more vulnerable to attacks.  The bleed effect can counter the instant heal since you cannot heal while you are bleeding out, or the effects negate and you don't change in health at all.

  • This also helps counter many human complaints about "ground-pound or tackle spam" because the NH has more viable options of attack.
  • No longer can the humans turn the hunt so easily, which keeps the game true to the game mode.
  • Many of these changes can add new strategies for the NH which can counter the current human strategies.  This gives more dynamic to the game play forcing the humans to adapt RATHER than the basic "dodge NH attack, kill NH, destroy nest" mentality.
  • It also would increase the lifespan of the game mode.  I feel like the only people I run into now as the NH are new players who bought the game off a steam sale or seasoned players who have played since the beginning and are impossible to defeat.

I think small changes like this would make the game more fair without making it more difficult for inexperienced players.  Frankly, I think these types of changes could make the game more interesting rather than a dodge and pound fest by experienced players.  Mines would make approaching nests much more dangerous, but surrounding zombies would force you to do something.  Pounce damage can force you to watch your back more to catch the NH BEFORE he initiates the pounce, and also gives the NH a bonus for catching the humans off guard.  Jeep attacks would be more frightening since you can actually get hit pretty hard if the NH catches the jeep (cause I think its already hard enough to get that lucky land, only to have them bail before you can smash anything).  Maybe you guys can see a flaw with some of my ideas, but I think its time that they added mutation lvl 4 and 5 and gave the NH some new tricks to fight these good players.

 

 

I see you have come across many problems, which in my opinion, do not have to be "fixed" with your solutions. Now please, hear me out. I too play as hunter many times, and also against very good hunters. And these problems here, are no problems for me and other good hunters.

 

First problem, I don't know if this is actually true what I am about to say, but in some cases humans can't dodge tackles, anyways, a pounce that does damage when missed and that knocks them unconscious in 3 times is a bit much. I would say 5 times, because as hunter you have to land 5 successful hits on a survivor to kill them. (Ground pound, tackle, claws or a combination of them all. If you land 5 of them, humans are dead if they don't heal)

 

Second problem, There is a skill called UV block, you should try it. A hunter which can still run and jump like there is nothing going on is OP. I can already see the GP spam if that where the case.

 

Third problem, It requires some skill indeed, but also you have to make a good decision when to shoot the spit or not. If that's still to hard for you, try doing a GP. When you successfully GP someone, the camera follows that player flying backwards. In that moment you basically have some sort of auto aim, all you have to do is press the spit button and you'll most likely have a spit stuck on them, easy right?

 

Fourth problem, You can tackle buggies you know? And a tip to keep up with them, Night hunters can now go from tendrils straight to running and keep the momentum of their tendril for a short period. So if you tendril, run and then jump you will fly really quickly and it will be easier to tendril further again. What would actually be a good feature is to give the night hunter the ability to use their tendrils on the buggies, pulling themselves towards the buggies really quick! And to balance this to the humans, humans can get the tendrils of their buggies by using the electric cage or perhaps the UV lights on their car.

 

Fifth problem, Health is indeed higher, but like I said before it just takes 5 hits, which isn't easy of course because the survivors only have to hit you three times but still, I would say this is pretty balanced. The healing part depends on the difficulty level the host is playing on. Hard and Nightmare do not have instant heals, but medic-kits do heal more! I would suggest the developers find a way to balance the difference between matches on normal difficulty compared to nightmare difficulty. For example, the night hunter spits would take a little less time to recharge and also the night hunters health would be restored faster when playing against people on a normal difficulty.

 

 

 

Your idea to have Night Hunter's spit act like mines isn't that bad actually, it would be a pretty cool addition to the skill tree. Hunters would be able to put their selected spit on the ground as mine (with a new button) instead of shooting them.

Another cool idea to balance this mode is maybe give the survivor sense AND the Hunter's scream a change (or maybe make this another mode.) Instead of survivor sense once, and then being able to see the hunter for a while. A survivor sense with a cool-down timer, which shows the last location of the Night Hunter when the Night Hunter is in range of the survivor sense of course.

And perhaps the same for the Night Hunter. This way you would have to be a bit more aware and look around for the night hunter, also does this give the night hunter an opportunity to approach the survivors in a stealthy way for some surprise attacks.

 

That's all for now, I hope my English was correct. (Sorry if that isn't the case)

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Every single Ultimate Survivor uses a heavy weapon now since it forces the hunter too flee or die. As for ground pound spam, aim upwards with a heavy weapon and most of the time you'll land a hit just before getting hit by the ground pound. Finish with a tackle if the hunter is stupid enough to try another GP. Heavy weapons are OP, so many combos to do with them that end up in a 2 hit kill. The reach on them seems to be buggy as hell too. The hunter really really really needs more HP in order to even be a "glass cannon". That, or the heavy weapons need to do exactly 50% damage. Of course, this has probably been suggested before and I have no reason to believe it would ever happen. Maybe it's time to leave this game and move on, it was never meant to be a great multiplayer pvp experience. :D

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Actually the claw range is very far and can even hit through very small openings, but it's not a viable tactic to walk backwards while clawing as they'll still catch up to you and kill you.

 

And if a Night Hunter is trying to run forward and claw you use your dropkick to gain some space and heal or you can use a Heavy weapon and tackle.

 

Be that as it may, I still don't think the claw attack is a viable attack for the hunter on anyone who isn't low HP, which given how fast humans heal you do not see very often and if you have to stay in close combat to get there you're dead as the NH

 

it was probably typo, what i think he meant is it will make the human impossible to win against a hunter

 

and his point with his video is to show even when he's not perfect aka made mistake it is still possible to win against high ranked survivor in 2vs1 or 3vs1. as some of the hunter here are saying it's impossible for a hunter to win if there are more human players.

 

Probably was a type, but my point was those weren't high level players because they were making basic mistakes. I would say I'm about on his level as a NH and about half the games I play are simply unwinnable. No attack I have can land, whereas the guys he was playing were making basic mistakes. Most of the matches I play I get lucky if I can land one spit/tackle/pounce, let alone survive long enough for a GP since even if I drop it it seems the game always gives a tie to the human (ie-human slices and I GP, it registers his hit and not mine) Maybe that's just my internet though.

 

also i don't think the btz need to be fixed, as it's balanced enough for me, except they do need to fix the BUGS & Cheaters and maybe some little buff to hunter in 4vs1

And that's a fair opinion. I just find that the game they described to me, a stealthy NH trying to sneak attack the humans that is meant to be a nightmare is usually just a joke to high level players and they easily win. Its a nightmare for beginners who usually have it turned off or bail at the beginning of the match. I don't think it needs to be re balanced but rather retooled to add different strategies to help the NH combat the dodging skill of higher level players.  I want more viable options for NH attacks than just the one that was shown in the video over and over (which is effective, but VERY counter-able)

 

i never said the legendary doesn't give more edge to human, what i said is, it don't give the human extra damage to a hunter, as it still require the same number of hit whether they are 0 legend or max legend, same as guns or throwing weapons. and where you said the NH doesn't get nothing is also wrong, as the NH did get more buff in the following update, you can see it here http://forum.techland.pl/topic/11511-be-the-zombie-mode-patch-notes/ , even the latest patch keep giving buff to NH.

 

also regarding the human health in legendary level, this is why i said the hunter here need to test it out, or the dev can confirm this, as i think the hunter still need the same GP hit / tackle hit to kill a survivor regardless their legend level, do note i never really paying close attention to it but it feels the same and if the buggy grab require the same number of hit to kill a human then it should also the same for GP/Tackle. so someone here test it out :D

And you're right, I thought the legendary attacks made the humans more powerful against the NH cause it seems that I die quicker now, but maybe that's just them being good. But I do feel like they heal nearly instantly if they're maxed out (which is easy to do with all the glitches in the game)

 

Hopefully a DEV or someone else can confirm that they heal faster though.  All I know is I've played matches where I get so excited to land a tackle and try and rush back to kill the wounded person only to find they aren't wounded anymore. :P

 

dodging for mid air ground pound spam is a lot of harder than you think, especially if the hunter can land it correctly, as one dodge backward will still hit the human

 

and for toxic spit, you can't wait for the toxic to end as the toxic spit have longer duration than the human revive time especially with the latest patch where they reduce it to 15 sec, and even if you manage to revive them without killing yourself, the human will die again because he only have 25 health when revived.

 

same as toxic spit in the nest, that forced you to use range weapon which make it harder to kill the nest especially when the hunter is near.

 

yes lag can cause the claw show much more farther but the claw is indeed have much more range than human melee weapon.

 

Ground-pound is definitely the most difficult to dodge, but I have definitely seen players who avoid mine every time (even with maxed out range). And its those players that if I miss, I'm dead guaranteed.

 

You're probably right about the spits, I was just giving some sort of idea, but it still isn't an easy kill since when they're alive they can run out of the smoke.

 

And lag works both ways, I've definitely been 15m in the air on my screen and get "sliced" by an enemy on the ground.

 

First problem, I don't know if this is actually true what I am about to say, but in some cases humans can't dodge tackles, anyways, a pounce that does damage when missed and that knocks them unconscious in 3 times is a bit much. I would say 5 times, because as hunter you have to land 5 successful hits on a survivor to kill them. (Ground pound, tackle, claws or a combination of them all. If you land 5 of them, humans are dead if they don't heal)

I've never run into a situation where humans couldn't dodge a tackle. I wish I had a video, but I once ground-pounded someone off a roof and then tackled them mid air, only to have them jump over me. But seeing as how hard it is to land a pounce (since its so easy to drain the HP just a little so you can't pounce, landing 5 consecutive pounces WITHOUT them healing would be impossible. I think 3 is a fair number, but its ridiculous that it isn't any damage already. Plus, the recovery time they have is countered by the recovery time the NH has as well.

 

Second problem, There is a skill called UV block, you should try it. A hunter which can still run and jump like there is nothing going on is OP. I can already see the GP spam if that where the case.

 

Third problem, It requires some skill indeed, but also you have to make a good decision when to shoot the spit or not. If that's still to hard for you, try doing a GP. When you successfully GP someone, the camera follows that player flying backwards. In that moment you basically have some sort of auto aim, all you have to do is press the spit button and you'll most likely have a spit stuck on them, easy right?

UV block is very useful, but often times you need to put together a series of attacks in order to defend a nest and you fail (which is fair), but I think its ridiculous that as the NH sometimes you must just sit and wait for everything to recharge because going in without UV block/spits is suicidal. Flying around trying to distract often does nothing, especially against more than 1, since one attacks the nest and the other UV protects.

 

I've tried this method many times, and the NH ground pound cool-down (even after a successful one) often is too long to properly land a spit. By the time you spit, unless you get lucky and move your cursor up just enough and hit them right off the bat, they will recover and jump away BEFORE the spit explodes. This has happened to me TOO many times.

 

Fourth problem, You can tackle buggies you know? And a tip to keep up with them, Night hunters can now go from tendrils straight to running and keep the momentum of their tendril for a short period. So if you tendril, run and then jump you will fly really quickly and it will be easier to tendril further again. What would actually be a good feature is to give the night hunter the ability to use their tendrils on the buggies, pulling themselves towards the buggies really quick! And to balance this to the humans, humans can get the tendrils of their buggies by using the electric cage or perhaps the UV lights on their car.

 

Fifth problem, Health is indeed higher, but like I said before it just takes 5 hits, which isn't easy of course because the survivors only have to hit you three times but still, I would say this is pretty balanced. The healing part depends on the difficulty level the host is playing on. Hard and Nightmare do not have instant heals, but medic-kits do heal more! I would suggest the developers find a way to balance the difference between matches on normal difficulty compared to nightmare difficulty. For example, the night hunter spits would take a little less time to recharge and also the night hunters health would be restored faster when playing against people on a normal difficulty.

Buggy tackle often does more damage to you than to the human, since most humans have the electric cage which automatically engages if you tackle. And tendril sprint isn't enough to catch up, but rather it simply keeps pace if you're going in a straight line.

 

And I'm not trying to say that the healing is OP for the humans, but simply we need SOMETHING upgraded since they got something upgraded. The basics of the game-mode seem to say that the NH should be favored in all matches if you are evenly skilled. I feel like I'm as good of a NH as any other, but higher skilled humans often dodge EVERY attack I have and force me to wait, either killing me or killing the nest in the process. It isn't more power I want, but strategies that don't involve me running in head first to my death against good players.

 

Your idea to have Night Hunter's spit act like mines isn't that bad actually, it would be a pretty cool addition to the skill tree. Hunters would be able to put their selected spit on the ground as mine (with a new button) instead of shooting them.

Another cool idea to balance this mode is maybe give the survivor sense AND the Hunter's scream a change (or maybe make this another mode.) Instead of survivor sense once, and then being able to see the hunter for a while. A survivor sense with a cool-down timer, which shows the last location of the Night Hunter when the Night Hunter is in range of the survivor sense of course.

And perhaps the same for the Night Hunter. This way you would have to be a bit more aware and look around for the night hunter, also does this give the night hunter an opportunity to approach the survivors in a stealthy way for some surprise attacks.

 

That's all for now, I hope my English was correct. (Sorry if that isn't the case)

I really like your idea about the survivor sense. I always thought it should be a spot feature rather than a constant usage feature. Much like in Battlefield 4 where you spot someone and they stay spotted on the minimap for 15 seconds or so before going away. If you spam the spot button it has a cooldown. Howl I think is more necessary for the hunter, since it isn't easy to see where humans are with the poor vision and hearing the hunter has (especially when injured)

 

And that is my whole premise with the spit mines. I think it adds a new strategy WITHOUT making the NH unbeatable at any skill level. But I think it would HAVE to be a hidden spit, otherwise it would be too easy to spot and destroy.

 

I think "hit-and-run" style attacks as well as "bait-and-wait" attacks should be more feasible as the hunter, rather than "smash-and-grab" which seems to be the only option now (ie-UV block in, spit, fail a pounce/tackle, have the spit land, keep attacking and hope the spit does some damage)

 

And your English is great, thanks so much for your input because I want the game to get better, not make one side more OP than the other.  And I am just one person who has only put 25-30 hours in as the NH so I am FAR from perfect and have yet to encounter many things.  I also don't have great internet, so some of my frustration is probably to blame on there.

 

Why can't the night hunter throw cars??

The NH can "throw" cars with tackle and ground pound (if he's close enough)

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Ground-pound is definitely the most difficult to dodge, but I have definitely seen players who avoid mine every time (even with maxed out range). And its those players that if I miss, I'm dead guaranteed.

 

Have you tried doing a UV heal after a miss? In the case of a 1v1 this is very useful. You might notice that when you miss a ground pound, there is this short moment, (Most of the times) where the recovery is done, but the human still hits you before/while you jump or tendril away. In this moment you can UV heal quick enough to not die, this not only heals you, but also restores your stamina which gives you the opportunity to pounce them while they're hitting you. When humans are hitting you, they will most likely not use their UV flashlights because they are pressing the attack button constantly even when you heal, so when you have stamina you can pounce them and get a kill. (Of course experienced players will notice this tactic and use UV, but UV heal after a missed GP can save your life in some cases!) - (I hope you understand my explanation :lol:)

 

 

UV block is very useful, but often times you need to put together a series of attacks in order to defend a nest and you fail (which is fair), but I think its ridiculous that as the NH sometimes you must just sit and wait for everything to recharge because going in without UV block/spits is suicidal. Flying around trying to distract often does nothing, especially against more than 1, since one attacks the nest and the other UV protects. 

 

I would suggest you change the way you look at this, many experienced hunters keep attacking you even if they don't have any spits or shields, waiting of course is bad for your nests, so you should not only look at how long it takes before your spits are back, but also look at your health. If your health is max (which seems to recover pretty quick now,) you can still keep trying to land GP and tackles with combination of claw attacks. This will keep the survivor(s) busy while you're recharging your spits. Once you take on hit, you have to watch out for people who use 2H weapons because if you miss a tackle or GP in that case, you'll most likely end up dead.

 

 

I've tried this method many times, and the NH ground pound cool-down (even after a successful one) often is too long to properly land a spit. By the time you spit, unless you get lucky and move your cursor up just enough and hit them right off the bat, they will recover and jump away BEFORE the spit explodes. This has happened to me TOO many times.

 

Another useful tactic which you probably already tried (But I am going to say it anyway just in case) is to spit and tackle or pounce right afterwards. Humans in a PVP-grab state can't jump away and will get hit!

 

 

Buggy tackle often does more damage to you than to the human, since most humans have the electric cage which automatically engages if you tackle. And tendril sprint isn't enough to catch up, but rather it simply keeps pace if you're going in a straight line.

 

It could be because I have all skill unlocked and active, but Night Hunters are faster then buggies. (Unless they use nitrous) Unfortunately the difference in speed is so small, one mistake and you'll see them again once they've stopped for their next nests. I would say this is should be easier for a hunter to catch up to a car. Like I said before: "What would actually be a good feature is to give the night hunter the ability to use their tendrils on the buggies, pulling themselves towards the buggies really quick! And to balance this to the humans, humans can get the tendrils of their buggies by using the electric cage or perhaps the UV lights on their car."

 

 

And I'm not trying to say that the healing is OP for the humans, but simply we need SOMETHING upgraded since they got something upgraded. The basics of the game-mode seem to say that the NH should be favored in all matches if you are evenly skilled. I feel like I'm as good of a NH as any other, but higher skilled humans often dodge EVERY attack I have and force me to wait, either killing me or killing the nest in the process. It isn't more power I want, but strategies that don't involve me running in head first to my death against good players.

 

The only thing I would balance here is that when players have the ability to instantly heal because of their difficulty level, Hunters should have way shorter recharge times for spits/shields and especially health. On other difficulty levels which have no instant healing the balance is fine.

 

 

I really like your idea about the survivor sense. I always thought it should be a spot feature rather than a constant usage feature. Much like in Battlefield 4 where you spot someone and they stay spotted on the minimap for 15 seconds or so before going away. If you spam the spot button it has a cooldown. Howl I think is more necessary for the hunter, since it isn't easy to see where humans are with the poor vision and hearing the hunter has (especially when injured)

 

It would actually make a lot more sense if the Hunter got that spot feature. Because the scream/howl is like an echolocation.

"Echolocating animals emit calls out to the environment and listen to the echoes of those calls that return from various objects near them. They use these echoes to locate and identify the objects"

~Wikipedia

But of course because of balancing reasons, if only humans got this feature, it wouldn't be that bad, it would actually be alright and actually make it a more horrifying experience. In addition to that, if the hunter screams/howls, the humans should see a white (or another color) glow on the edge of their minimap to see from which direction the scream/howl came.

 

 

That's it for now, I would say this gamemode is pretty balanced at it's current state though, because as human and hunter I win almost every match. Even though I play human much more, as a hunter I am doing great too.  :D

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These changes are aimed to balance the game at higher skill levels WITHOUT making it too difficult for casual or beginners to fight the night hunter. And I think these changes add strategic strength to the NH, so if you think these would make it impossible for high level humans to lose wouldn't that make the current status in favor of the humans?

 

That was indeed a typo from my side. I meant that it would be nearly impossible for Night Hunters to lose at high ranks, IMO.
 
 

1. You hit around 50% of your spits, and even then 2 of your spit kills come because of a beginner mistake (minute 12:45).  MOST of your spit lands REQUIRED a follow up attack in order for them to land, ignoring the fact that many of those landed spits led to no benefit.  Some could be argued that the required follow up pounce/tackle put you more in harms way than led to an effective attack.

 

At 12:45 I personally didn't think the guy on the bus would get hit from a ground-level Gas-Tank, and you might talk about beginner mistakes but I'm sure we both learned something new from that. Landing a spit that doesn't lead to a kill is never wasted in my opinion. The one reason for using Horde Spit on maps like Old Town is that the affected's vision gets slightly worse, and it forces them to put focus on not falling off of rooftops. This results in focus put elsewhere than on the Night Hunter. 

 

 

2. You hit 20% of your pounces and 38% of your tackles.  Most of these misses came from the necessity to follow up a spit, but that necessity puts you into an awkward position of charging into the humans when that shouldn't be your strategy.  It was made VERY clear to me both when I bought this game and was trying to level up that the general rule for the NH is DO NOT GET CLOSE.  The NH is supposed to be a stealthy, quick, and powerful sneak attack character, not a smash-in-and-spit-everywhere-then-fail-a-bunch-of-attacks-to-hope-one-spit-lands character.

 

Don't know how it could have ever been about stealthing when Survivor Sense makes that impossible. I get why someone would see this as a problem if stealthing played a big role in advertisements. But like most multiplayer games it's impossible to know beforehand how the meta will evolve, and adapting to eachothers playstyle has lead us to where we are today. Have to be up close to do damage and not just rely on landing pounces to get kills. Risk-taking is another factor that's always been there since I started. Going for a Tackle or GP or even pouncing is risks that you have to take - some are gonna succeed, some fail. I don't see that this has never been the case. 

 

 

3. You had a successful close encounter rate of about 1:4 (or 1 success in every 5 encounters).  I counted success as close encounters that ended with them dying or being worse off AND didn't require you to flee for your life.  Seeing as 2/4 attacks require you to be close (tackle/ground-pound), I would say that you need to either strengthen the distance attacks (spit/pounce) to make up close encounters a worse strategy OR strengthen close encounter attacks so that you can increase the success of up close encounters.  (remediated by giving failed pounce a damage amount, spit mines, and poison claws for "hit-and-run" style attacks rather than crash in, ground pound, run.

 

I don't see the need of buffing the NH for close encounters when I (personally) do well as it is. Spit Mine is an interesting suggestion that could bring more fun into the games, but as earlier stated, this falls into risk-taking in the sense that you consume a spit charge that could end up doing nothing. I think if they put mines into the game they would have to have their own charges and cooldown. Cause as I think about now, I wouldn't dare to waste a Horde or UV spit charge. But hey, that's just me and how my playstyle looks. I'm comfortable with the current meta. 

 

The one time I think I'd use a Spit Mine would be on Old Town where the roof surfaces would make a trap harder to fail with. Guess it wouldn't be hard to hit any other spit either if put near nests on any map, but then I wonder how Humans are gonna counter them. Will they forever go range against nests when they can expect a Spit Mine? Will mines be disarmed by throwing/shooting explosives at the planted location? 

 

 

4. I wouldn't call these guys in the video experienced players, as I have found rank often is misleading.  You get 2 free kills from people abandoning, 2 free kills from a mistake of not jumping higher to avoid bombers for 1 second (minute 12:46), minute 2:40 shows a human just dancing around when he could've been doing something useful (ie-shooting with arrows/guns/grenades) or pushing toward to revive

 

I also missed 3 kills:

1. At 4:40 where I throw a Horde Spit instead of Toxic Spit, and then going for a Tackle at 4:46 on a guy that is moving away from the dying body, followed by badly placed Tendrils that hinders me from stopping the revive process. 

2. at 6:13 where I do the exact same mistake with badly placed Tendrils when I could have simply ran towards him with a Claw attack (or placed Tendril closer to the middle of the distance between us)

3 (and possibly 4). At 11:49 where I jump and fail to hold RMB for a 2nd Ground Pound. What you see is me flapping my arms repeatedly in mid-air. When I die you see a Gas-Tank coming in right behind his chupacabra.

 

The player at 2:35 could have never done anything that would have helped the other two from dying (and for reference this was a very low ranked player). I had UV Shield, so had he put out his bow I would not have stood still and I'd probably let go off the charging spit as well. 

 

 

and NEVER have I seen an experienced player lose so much time as the humans did in stretches like 8:13-8:56, 9:19-10:13, and 13:42-14:20.  I'm sorry, but in my games if I have to wait to recharge health/spits that long, they make me suffer with a nest.  That was almost 2 full minutes lost.

 

This isn't my first time playing against these players, and even most of the Ultimate Survivors that I play against dont go for nests until they kill me. Having one go for nests usually makes that person an easy target for spits, so I understand where this is coming from. One explanation for them going for me instead of nests was discovered in another thread: you can hear Crossbow glitch at 1:37 and 6:55. Furthermore, talking about time lost, they don't know the cooldowns of my abilities. We can't know for certain why they, as you describe, "wasted" time on going for me instead of the nest. 

 

 

5. Your necessity to spam ground pound towards the end shows the uselessness of other NH attacks.  Not to mention they have NO skill at back-jumping away from the ground pound to avoid it, which I have encountered many times already. 

I would say I'm about on his level as a NH and about half the games I play are simply unwinnable. No attack I have can land, whereas the guys he was playing were making basic mistakes.

 

I think it rather shows how viable the NH is in any situation you find yourself in. It wasn't a necessity, but rather my choice of action to secure a kill. Had he jumped in a way that would have made GP impossible for me to hit, I wouldn't have gone for it. The reason I land most of my GP's is because I cancel those that I think won't lead to a hit. This is just another example that shows how you have to adapt to the current situation you find yourself in, and most importantly, the current meta - the meta you find many problems within that I don't.

 

 

Added a new video where I play 1v2 on Old Town against an Ultimate Survivor and a Fighter. This map is my least favourite as Horde Spit doesn't help much more than doing what I explained above about slightly worse vision and the amount of focus they have to put on not falling of roofs instead of on the NH.

 

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That DFA at 4:16 was so broken it makes me wanna cringe.

 

The one around 15:46 and 18:44 are also cringe worthy. The incessant flare spam was also a nice touch for those a$$holes.

Edited by A. Ryan

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