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FolksyTarsier posted an exploit in this post.  I can confirm it works on a PC, as well.

 

It looks like a weapon repair will interrupt a swing recovery and then another swing will interrupt the repair.  The yield is much faster swing rates on two handed weapons.  Hope this gets fixed!  This could be the exploit used in my videos of nests being destroyed so quick during a respawn.

 

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Happy new year everyone!  Hope your holidays were great! 

 

I have looked through all your feedback so far!  Thanks!  It's greatly appreciated! 

 

We are looking into the 2 handed recovery cancels now (repair and shield).  Thanks for the video!  Nests being destroyed too quickly is something we are trying to crack down on (without making it more difficult for beginners). 2 handed weapon damage against Nests will be reduced when "The Following" releases... It won't be the most viable strategy for destroying them.

 

Cancelling out of your missed GP with a UV block was a bug with the initial release.  That was fixed a long time ago with the very first patch I believe!

 

Also, we do have a lot of data on how games are being played out.  There are a few exploits that Survivors can use right now (that are being addressed) but it is definitely not as one-sided as some of you seem to believe.    When evenly matched groups play against each other the win/loss ratio is roughly 55-45 in the Humans favour.  In order to make sure people can find games, we end up opening up the pools of players you can be matched against pretty wide.  There is the beginners pool for players getting a feel for the game....and then once you get going we bump you up into the next pool with everyone else.  This can be difficult for the players that are 'pretty good' playing against players that really are elite level 'Be the Zombie' players.  We've chosen matching you up with someone we know is a bit outside your level rather than being stuck waiting for the perfect match.  I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced... It's a difficult thing to achieve, especially in a game that can be played 1v1 to 4v1...  But our data shows it's also not as far off as some people make it out to be.  

 

Think about playing Chess.  That's a balanced game.  If you were "pretty good" and got matched up with a "Grandmaster"... you'd be destroyed.  It wouldn't seem fair.  This is part of what is happening (to varying degrees) right now.  We are considering the option of adding a 3rd "Elite" pool.  We may try it out for a bit and see what happens.  We don't want to make matchmaking any more difficult though.  Right now we are leaning more towards what I like to call the "Mario Kart" approach. Rubberbanding.  If you are winning by a large margin, we start making things really hard for you... If you are struggling, we lend you a helping hand.  This applies to both Survivors and Hunters in many different ways, and in varying amounts.    

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Hi there Pete, 

 

It's great knowing that Techland is really trying to make btz experience much better for all of us. But how can the win/loss ratio be a good indicator for the btz?

From what u said, there are 3 levels of players/ survivors in the game which are grouped into two during matchmaking: 1st pool- the beginners and 2nd pool- the good players (including the elite). I bet the beginners and good players consist of 80-90% of the total players with only 10-20% elite (maybe less).

 

My main complaint in btz is, if u pit an elite hunter with 3 or 4 elite survivors, it is close to impossible for the hunter to win the game and really it's not about skills anymore, even lady luck seems to avoid us most of the times (must be the hunter's face i think, lol). Hopefully with the implementation of the 3rd pool system i.e. elite pool for matchmaking, u guys will see the problem i.e. low win ratio for the hunter in  this category. Plus, based on the 55-45 win/ loss ratio the hunters still loses more matches and i believe if u look closely, the ratio of dead survivors vs destroyed nests, it's in favor of the survivors by large amount.

 

Anyway, i'm looking forward to the btz2 and wish all the best to u guys :) 

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Hi there Pete, 

 

It's great knowing that Techland is really trying to make btz experience much better for all of us. But how can the win/loss ratio be a good indicator for the btz?

From what u said, there are 3 levels of players/ survivors in the game which are grouped into two during matchmaking: 1st pool- the beginners and 2nd pool- the good players (including the elite). I bet the beginners and good players consist of 80-90% of the total players with only 10-20% elite (maybe less).

 

My main complaint in btz is, if u pit an elite hunter with 3 or 4 elite survivors, it is close to impossible for the hunter to win the game and really it's not about skills anymore, even lady luck seems to avoid us most of the times (must be the hunter's face i think, lol). Hopefully with the implementation of the 3rd pool system i.e. elite pool for matchmaking, u guys will see the problem i.e. low win ratio for the hunter in  this category. Plus, based on the 55-45 win/ loss ratio the hunters still loses more matches and i believe if u look closely, the ratio of dead survivors vs destroyed nests, it's in favor of the survivors by large amount.

 

Anyway, i'm looking forward to the btz2 and wish all the best to u guys :)

 

An initial overall look at the stats show the Hunter easily winning the majority of games played.

 

The 55-45 I quoted was based on 1v1 games where equal high ranked players are paired up against each other.  That's for consoles.  For PC it is almost dead even (just slightly in the Hunters favour actually).  That's filtering out wins the Hunter gets from Survivors dropping out right away as well.  The Hunters win % drops to about 60-40 in the situation you mention (elite Hunter vs 4 elite Survivors).  A lot of the changes we are making are to help the Hunter a bit in these situations without affecting the 1v1 too much.

 

We are planning to add this 3rd elite pool soon, maybe next week sometime.  I'll keep you updated. I'm still working on BTZ improvements for 'The Enhanced Edition' as we speak!  For now, if you are getting frustrated with some match-ups you are getting, try joining only full green bars in the search window match-up setting.  This should give you the best game play experience! (Sorry xbox players....I know this isn't an option for you.  Quickjoin is trying to find these games for you if it can though!)

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The Hunter will get a buff to his tackle that should help out in these 4v1 situations we are talking about!  A successful tackle will have an added AOE knockdown (similar to pounce slam) for helping out in 2v1-4v1 games.  I know it can be frustrating to land a successful tackle only to receive damage from a 3rd party watching it play out.  Now if a survivors standing too close, BOOM!  They get knocked down! I updated the main page :)

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The Hunter will get a buff to his tackle that should help out in these 4v1 situations we are talking about!  A successful tackle will have an added AOE knockdown (similar to pounce slam) for helping out in 2v1-4v1 games.  I know it can be frustrating to land a successful tackle only to receive damage from a 3rd party watching it play out.  Now if a survivors standing too close, BOOM!  They get knocked down! I updated the main page :)

 

Excellent! It really does suck being defenseless against third parties during grab states. This should even the odds.

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The Hunter will get a buff to his tackle that should help out in these 4v1 situations we are talking about!  A successful tackle will have an added AOE knockdown (similar to pounce slam) for helping out in 2v1-4v1 games.  I know it can be frustrating to land a successful tackle only to receive damage from a 3rd party watching it play out.  Now if a survivors standing too close, BOOM!  They get knocked down! I updated the main page :)

 

This will be my new favorite move then! i'll keep practicing so that i'll be able to land one perfectly. Thanks Pete! (and other techland members working on this too)  :)

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Getting a little sick of humans wall hacking and camping out where you can't get them if a admin wants to add me I would be glad to show them where these places are believe me I know a bunch of locations that need to be patched

There's no need. There will be time out and non interaction penalties in the next patch.

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Think about playing Chess.  That's a balanced game.  If you were "pretty good" and got matched up with a "Grandmaster"... you'd be destroyed.  It wouldn't seem fair.  This is part of what is happening (to varying degrees) right now.  We are considering the option of adding a 3rd "Elite" pool.  We may try it out for a bit and see what happens.  We don't want to make matchmaking any more difficult though.  Right now we are leaning more towards what I like to call the "Mario Kart" approach. Rubberbanding.  If you are winning by a large margin, we start making things really hard for you... If you are struggling, we lend you a helping hand.  This applies to both Survivors and Hunters in many different ways, and in varying amounts.    

 

While it may be fair to compare the if-then tactical level of chess to Dying Light, I'm not so sure about a global comparison as chess is a 3p point of view game. In chess, opponents see the total actualized map clearly: one move at a time. This differs from an exclusively 1p point of view of Kyle and/or hunter in Dying Light, from which players infer the global 3p environment's current state, which due to network constraints and the fast, complex pace of the game, give us 3p point of view that is less clear than a chess game. The Mario Kart makers are aware of 1p bias and include the possibility to view the race post mortem from 3p point of view camera.

 

Adding the fun animations on top of this creates a layer of complexity that is almost too high and/or cluttered to be compared to chess. A lot more indeterminacy, due to the large and rich game world, and therefore luck is at play in dying light than in chess. Part of what makes chess interesting is the simplicity that negates indeterminacy (besides the occasional weirdness of pouncing through a wall ;)) and allows for such a large number of possible counters to advances by either side. No matter the sequence of moves, a refutation of some sequence of moves or plan is possible in principle, if one is precise enough and in time, with far less outcomes being decided by luck.

 

Chess also emphasizes player control and choice with the simplicity of its setup: different board variants (such as 5x6) chess, blitz, rapid, classical versions of chess, allowing for handicap of one side playing without some piece, Fisher Random, displacement, Pre-Chess etc. The list is quite endless, reflecting the fact that even in a game hundreds of years old the balancing question is still being debated, and anybody purchasing a chessboard can play the types of game, inventory, game world, rules that they choose and/or find acceptable facing some opponent. People can play chess with 10 queen Night Hunters if they want to.

 

In Mario Kart this flexibility is reflected by choice of character, vehicle, race etc. Because they permit enough flexibility before logging on, instead of expecting users to collect sea weed to fuel their bike (btw I like the survival ideal until it gets in the way of play), there is less incentive to cheat. With 200cc mode they give people the option to move so fast, nobody considers cheating to get ahead. In chess (as in Mario Kart and other great games) there is little that replaces or de-emphasizes player control to play what they choose, which is perhaps part of their universal appeal.  

 

Also, there are positions in chess that are so subtle, they negate materialism itself as strategy towards advantage. The Wei Yi vs. Bruzon game last year was a fine example of this. The game illustrated that people can sacrifice and throw out everything, including all their cash, weapons, soldiers, the kitchen sink... if their plan is precise. This is the kind of phenomenon that great games produce. Also, why does everything have to be about winning in some obvious way? Why not felicity/winning conditions that are more nuanced and human? Like a survivor that takes a beginner under his wing to learn the ropes: human behavior could be rewarded in some ways instead of punished by losses. Such incentives could smooth out  beginners' learning curves in similar way to rubberbanding.   

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Pete,

 

Is there going to be any change stuck-in-animation issue after a missed pounced until the NH stops falling?  Or will there be an animation added to the humans when they are GPed off a roof so they can't simply grapple back to a roof top?  I do believe they are stuck in animation after a tackle, but I don't think so after a GP, while the NH is stuck in animation after a missed pounce or tackle.

 

Also, is there going to be any change in the grappling to a roof and the ability to dodge a tackle towards the end grapple, but before they land?

 

Thanks

 

(Sorry, if this has already been asked and answered.)

 

To further expand on the tackling issue.  A while back I've had problems with humans simply grappling up to my position and attacking.  I was advised to tackle while they are on the way up.  Fine.  I stared attempting that and do get some successful tackles that send the humans flying.  The problem is on my end sometimes I try to tackle and the human simply jumps over me.  If I try to extend the range out so he doesn't have a chance to jump at the landing zone I run and attempt a tackle before he is in range and simply go past him without making contact.  Taking into account lag, the human is likely already landed and is able to jump, but my perspective his is still traveling.  The problem with that lag is when HE is in range from my tackle, MY game thinks he's still out of range and I can't initiate the tackle as the NH has to have a target to lock on to.  (Unlike the human who can drop kick into nothing.)  So, I have to wait to tackle while the human gets to get to the landing zone so he can dodge my tackle.  The range of a very fast moving target is affected by lag a lot more than a target that is sitting still. e.g. tackling a human sprinting or just standing there.  I would like to see the range of initiating a tackle greatly increased on a fast moving target or some other solution to more effectively tackle while a human is grappling towards my position.  Looking for low ping games is not the answer as 90% of my game the ping meter is a single dot.

Edited by SomeOldDude

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Hey Chickeninja,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. My Chess example was meant strictly as a matchmaking comparison. It was meant to show how getting paired up with someone outside your skill level can make you feel, even in a completely balanced, symmetrical game. My Mario Kart reference was strictly in regards to how they use rubberbanding to encourage close matches.  

 

Again, I'm not saying BTZ is perfectly balanced and we cannot  improve it.  We can, and we are.  BTZ gameplay is asymmetrical and I believe that makes it easy for people to write off the skills it takes for the other party to succeed in the game.  It's easy to just say "They have better tools than me, that's why they won" when in actual fact, they most likely have practiced longer and/or have a better understanding of the game.  As I mentioned above, our data shows that 1v1 is very close. We know as you move closer to 4v1 it can be very difficult for the Hunter against skilled teams working together. We are making some changes to help the Hunter here.

 

The best thing you can do right now if you are getting frustrated with the matchups you are receiving, is to only join full green bars in the matchup screen. 

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Pete,

 

Is there going to be any change stuck-in-animation issue after a missed pounced until the NH stops falling?  Or will there be an animation added to the humans when they are GPed off a roof so they can't simply grapple back to a roof top?  I do believe they are stuck in animation after a tackle, but I don't think so after a GP, while the NH is stuck in animation after a missed pounce or tackle.

 

Also, is there going to be any change in the grappling to a roof and the ability to dodge a tackle towards the end grapple, but before they land?

 

Thanks

 

(Sorry, if this has already been asked and answered.)

Being stuck in the missed pounce/tackle is by design and is fully intentional. You will take mitigated damage while stuck in these states though.  GP is already a very effective tool and won't be receiving any buffs either.  Sorry!   :(

 

There was an issue where Survivors could evade when they shouldn't be able to.  Those have been fixed.  I'm not entirely sure if it applies to the situation you mention.  It's possible the survivor already got to the rooftop and pressed jump for a valid evade but due to network conditions you were a bit behind to see this.  Something that will help is how you can trigger tackle now (and by "now" I mean "when 'The Following' releases!").  You can just run at the Survivor and hold (tackle input) and the tackle will execute when within range.  You don't have to mash the button hoping you press it at the right time.  This should help you hit the tackle before they get to the edge and they won't be able to jump it.

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I had edited my post after you saw it...

 

But, is that trick with holding down the tackle key suppose to work in all situations on all platforms?  I just jumped on the game (PC) to try it in the tutorial and it doesn't work.  I just run into the human.  I have to not have the key pressed until I'm in range and then execute it.

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The best thing you can do right now if you are getting frustrated with the matchups you are receiving, is to only join full green bars in the matchup screen. 

 

It's the green bar right? In my situation, the system often pit me against high level survivors (in group) and i would consider many of them as elite cause they win like more than 90% (or close to 100%) of any pvp / very unlikely to lose in any given match. Yeah i talked to them and some are my friends so i know how good they are.

 

.... We know as you move closer to 4v1 it can be very difficult for the Hunter against skilled teams working together. We are making some changes to help the Hunter here......

 

 I hope some of the changes would include more goons (these guys are easily killed with 3-4 slashes using heavy weapon), further nest distance for the survivors to get to and more biters in the nest area (current number is a joke with the 1-hit kill and takedowns the survivors have).

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