dogeared2

Invincible Nighthunter

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Yeh its for my entertainment too thats why i said that, not for honor lol.

 

I'm not that sure. If it were really all fun and games, the humor would be obvious and there'd be no need for your following justification of some idea of fairness/honor, not least about spotting auto aim use:

 

As long a mago does his full video and i do mine then thats fine lol. If its a full video as in no cuts in it then a video is hard to manipulate. I think with a video auto aim is so easy to spot, its a smooth motion following the hunter....Even if there is such thing as turning auto aim off and then quickly on, when holding a gun or weapon that short moment there probably will be a very smooth motion following the hunters head when auto aim is on that is impossible for any human to do. Also uv light strength, uv light stamina, bullet power etc can all be seen on a full video of a game uncut i believe. Btw on my channel i got a video of us killing that rush hunter. Many noobs don't know about the slide>tackle then slice tactic that a human uses, he is a noob so he immediately accused me of 1 hit killing him lol. check out the video here. Reminds me of mago lol

 

For instance, to me it wouldn't be clear if the final smooth motion following the hunter's head, assuming a hit, was due to a player's playing skill or their ability to hack. I don't think anybody, without firsthand knowledge and access to all concerned machine/code could know for sure. It's similar to beginning hunters not being able to see the combo you described because they are locked in some hit-taking animation. Here, it is understandable from Hunter pov, that they accuse of cheating because a hunter has no way to know/see that survivor is using that combo.

 

And here, we finally get into territory that is useful for community and relevant to the question: the game is configured exclusively from 1st person pov. What that does globally and by default, is hide the approach and attack of whoever wins some tactical encounter. From first person pov, this guarantees surprise potential in game play, which fuels the fun. The cost is that people will find it difficult to model/imagine how they were defeated... which also makes it plausible that people feel they were cheated, because they lack an explanation or third person pov on the situation that would reveal such.

 

I'm also not so sure what people mean when they say "noob". To me, this simply means beginner, which if we're honest, is the most valued resource for advanced hunters and/or survivors. Beginners keep the game fresh, help advanced people level, and are the ultimate, deciding factor in keeping a game alive, not the few advanced players. On some days I decide to just help hunters level up by playing survivor piñata. I have a survivor that has to be the most beaten up Crane in this game's modest history. My point is: if you like the game, let it rain for the noobs as well, and although gaming culture likes to punish noobs, it shoots itself in the foot by positioning itself in a way that bars innocent first timers from playing honorably, just because of the moods and pride of a couple of advanced players/elites; elites that once themselves were the same noobs they rail against. I therefore find it weird that some people use "noob" as an insult. 

 

Summing this up, regarding your challenge: lack of third person pov is not convincing for me. No video can prove fairness, especially with a game this complex. The only way this would appear legit, convincing, and/or entertaining to me, is if some impartial survivor takes footage along with the two teams doing the same; thereby embodying third person perspective proper. If your team is 3 Survivors and you find an advanced Hunter challenger, then I'd walk the walk of this here talk and set up my Piñata-Survivor to watch the match from some distant, more objective stadium perspective, record, and make up my own mind about skills, styles, game balance and fairness in such challenge. B)

 

Also, if you win consistently and not just once, it proves the points of many players that enjoy playing the hunter have been making over the last few months: that survivors are overpowered for various reasons. And videos or contributions that work towards proving or disproving such a point would indeed benefit the community, if everybody is ok with it. Yes, such a win would steal some of the glory of every survivor win as it would count as weight towards proving the imbalance that many feel to be undesirable.

Edited by Chickeninja

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well ok. One good way is that i use some recording software on my pc. I can record my desktop and processes etc before going into the game(no cuts). Then surely that wouuld prove it no? Or you are going to say you could hide the cheating program in the processes? Or someone photoshops it out? I could move the task bar around so that photoshopping is very very difficult lol. ps how would third person view of the action work? I dont think it will...

Edited by Ninja

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It's kind of interesting, as I'm gotten to this point in my NH career, than many times I've been accused of hacking.  I'm not saying I'm "Uber Hunter," either as I'm still having my behind handed to me on occasion.  Just this morning someone accused me of hacking and reported me.  The next game was a complete skunk.  The last game I played he was a complete new player against NH.  It was his second match.  He said the first NH just spawn-camped him for the kills.  I went through using the UV light, the 3 hit kill, horde defense, etc. etc.  I just looked and the match was 48 minutes long.  Another player came in and started attacking the nests--I was down to two--so I fought him for the win while the "noob" watched.

 

For me, it's not fun to simply wail on people for the win.  For one, as a NH I don't get anything one way or the other in-game.  It's all the satisfaction of a good fight.  If I'm dominant then I'll start trying new tactics to see what's working and what's not.  (I think that throws them for a really big loop.)  Sometimes I've gotten so wrapped up in a good fight that I've forgotten about the straggler killing the nest.

 

 

I don't have a solution for the hacking argument, but I sure would like for everyone to play on a level field.

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Yeh its for my entertainment too thats why i said that, not for honor lol. As long a mago does his full video and i do mine then thats fine lol. If its a full video as in no cuts in it then a video is hard to manipulate. I think with a video auto aim is so easy to spot, its a smooth motion following the hunter....Even if there is such thing as turning auto aim off and then quickly on, when holding a gun or weapon that short moment there probably will be a very smooth motion following the hunters head when auto aim is on that is impossible for any human to do. Also uv light strength, uv light stamina, bullet power etc can all be seen on a full video of a game uncut i believe. Btw on my channel i got a video of us killing that rush hunter. Many noobs don't know about the slide>tackle then slice tactic that a human uses, he is a noob so he immediately accused me of 1 hit killing him lol. check out the video here. Reminds me of mago lol

This guy.. " Rush " i know hes cheat too..

I have some vids of him cheating and reported here.. but techland doesnt do anything.

 

He changed his nickname on steam.. and now is " Artegr " 

 

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198053542106/

 

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well ok. One good way is that i use some recording software on my pc. I can record my desktop and processes etc before going into the game(no cuts). Then surely that wouuld prove it no? Or you are going to say you could hide the cheating program in the processes? Or someone photoshops it out? I could move the task bar around so that photoshopping is very very difficult lol. ps how would third person view of the action work? I dont think it will...

 

You're right and I agree: there is perhaps no perfect way to prove we are playing fair and clean. It's why all professional competitions, for example in sport have federations, referees, cameras, journalists etc. And still, there are always scandals, corruption, doping, hacks, and cheating of all sorts.

 

Nonetheless, with people working together, you could make 3rd person view of the action work by having one survivor be out-of-play, following say a three survivor vs hunter match: he'd not be involved in combat and be a cameraman. This would be community working together, although games like Mario Kart have nifty system for recording/playing back third person camera of the race, so such things can coded as well. But people could do it themselves. The end video would combine all three perspectives: out-of-play survivor, active survivors, and zombie. Some fine high level gameplay could be caught this way, raising everybody's profile while advertising the game mode.

 

As to who would be third survivor camera man out-of-play, merely recording best views of the action, you could follow sports: an observer that both sides trust.

It's kind of interesting, as I'm gotten to this point in my NH career, than many times I've been accused of hacking.  I'm not saying I'm "Uber Hunter," either as I'm still having my behind handed to me on occasion.  Just this morning someone accused me of hacking and reported me.  The next game was a complete skunk.  The last game I played he was a complete new player against NH.  It was his second match.  He said the first NH just spawn-camped him for the kills.  I went through using the UV light, the 3 hit kill, horde defense, etc. etc.  I just looked and the match was 48 minutes long.  Another player came in and started attacking the nests--I was down to two--so I fought him for the win while the "noob" watched.

 

For me, it's not fun to simply wail on people for the win.  For one, as a NH I don't get anything one way or the other in-game.  It's all the satisfaction of a good fight.  If I'm dominant then I'll start trying new tactics to see what's working and what's not.  (I think that throws them for a really big loop.)  Sometimes I've gotten so wrapped up in a good fight that I've forgotten about the straggler killing the nest.

 

 

I don't have a solution for the hacking argument, but I sure would like for everyone to play on a level field.

 

Totally word, SomeOldDude. If you're up for it, hit me up on PM to spar or play Piñata-Survivor anytime. Also keep ‘em videos coming... they're enjoyable and smooth to watch. Good process you got going there. Same to all other video producers out there in this thread. Your videos look awesome.

 

This guy.. " Rush " i know hes cheat too..

I have some vids of him cheating and reported here.. but techland doesnt do anything.

 

He changed his nickname on steam.. and now is " Artegr " 

 

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198053542106/

 

Yeah danilomv, that's the funky teleport hack in the second video. Thanks for the info and heads-up!

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You mean a spectator mode like evolve?

 

There's quite a few ideas this game could take away from evolve.

 

Yes, that's a much more appropriate example, but I don't own evolve; I'm just late on the Mario Kart thing, with kids from all corners of the planet out-drifting me every turn. Then I get to see from third person pov how objectively stupid my run was. :lol:

 

But that's a good question to chew on: if people had unlimited cash/resources to develop BtZ along those lines, borrowing some experience from evolve, what would they do?

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There was a game many years ago, and for the life of me I can't remember which, when you recorded a game it would record the actions, not video.  You could play it back from a third party view.  The actions are being transmitted over the internet to sync the game, there shouldn't be a reason why it couldn't be recorded.

 

Maybe to real game enthusiasts here could come up with that.  I don't think it was one of the Doom! games.  Maybe Quake, Duke Nukem? 

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Oh there are plenty of things in terms of balance. However I'm not sure it translates well because in order for evolve to work you need 4 players where as this game mode can be solo'd. Therein also lies the problem, if one person alone can do it then how do you properly balance 4 players? This game hasn't seemed to solve that problem yet given how increasingly difficult it becomes with each additional player, which in this case is just a duplicate rather than someone with a clearly defined role like in evolve.

 

Anyone can do anyone's job and one person can do everyone's job at once. How do you balance that?

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One thing that kind of makes me scratch my head is in 1v1 there are no KO's - it's an instant kill.  Yet, in 1v>1 a KO can last as long as, what, 30 seconds unless the player opts for the death.  When a NH is dealing with more than one player that leaves a kill on the table to defend.  Die in that time frame then you're not only dying losing the nearly 45 seconds of in-combat game-play, but a kill as well.  Many a time I've gotten a hard fought KO only to have to have to fight his buddy to defend that KO.  Low on health and spits means I'm at an extreme disadvantage.  I have to make the decision to voluntarily lose that kill, heal, and go for it again; or risk a death to get the kill.

 

To me, being able to revive in PvP is not fair as it's backwards: the harder the game the easier it is to lose a kill.

 

Also, the only way to kill a KOed player is to swipe.  I've died plenty of times trying to claw a KOed player.  It's odd that a survivor is immune to all of my attacks save the weakest and slowest one.  Even if you kept the KO in, then allow for a GP or pounce to finish them off quickly.

 

*In 1v2 I do use a KO to keep a player out of combat if I think I can take on the other player.  Essentially turning a 1v2 into 1v1 for a short period.  I've noticed some players opting for the death to get back in the fight.

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yep we already know survivors have advantage in general over NH. But everyone has to adjust to be the best they can. I seen some hunters use this to their advantage when they incap 1 player. One thing they should change is not being able to attack hunter when he has pounced on someone.

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Oh there are plenty of things in terms of balance. However I'm not sure it translates well because in order for evolve to work you need 4 players where as this game mode can be solo'd. Therein also lies the problem, if one person alone can do it then how do you properly balance 4 players? This game hasn't seemed to solve that problem yet given how increasingly difficult it becomes with each additional player, which in this case is just a duplicate rather than someone with a clearly defined role like in evolve.

 

Anyone can do anyone's job and one person can do everyone's job at once. How do you balance that?

 

Perhaps through search and experimenting, while keeping it simple. Search for fresh sets of objectives that would give rise to new natural roles/jobs (as opposed to the more rigid evolve roles, for the cool flexibility of getting it done your way, your styles); for now naturally emerging roles are less skilled survivors are best chaperoned for nest duty, from nest to nest, by more seasoned survivors, that take on more defensive or even offensive roles. It's less prescribed and funkier than what evolved seems to be imho: you can choose to deviate, but if one has the luck to find oneself in evenly matched play, then such deviation has to be precise and grounded by specific context/situation of the game world.

 
What could be fun, simple modifications that contribute to balance and more fun in tension and excitement? How about an old idea from a few months back that takes the bull by the horns? Something simpler than nerfing and buffing various parameters or changing objectives, to level the hunter survivor playing field: strong survivors have to face not 1 but 2 Hunters?

 

Like this old video:

Apparently it's doable. Example of how a glitch/hack doesn't lead to players transparently abusing dominance, as this looks really fun for both sides. Given strong survivors, their combined overpowered UV strength would be halved, with defensive attention having to be split towards two hunter targets. A hunter engaging such a group solo suffers from drained energy and lack of shield and spits. Two hunters would allow for fresh alternative decoy tactics to emerge: e.g. the first hunter goes in, uses his shield and spits to complicate Survivor's lives and the second hunter engages to profit off weaknesses and drained UVs at exactly the right time coming from an unexpected angle. A lot of sharp, fun game play could come from this. :ph34r:

 

The way predators harmonize efforts to split the herd prey, which is in line with the hunter metaphor and narrative of the mode, serves as a model. Hunters be Hunters mode. Techland telling us the hunters in Haran never met or went out for a beer? :D I find that unlikely. Highly skilled Survivors would have to be more precise and judicious with deployment of their UV webs and would have more of a challenge. I don't know if this would ultimately balance things, but I do know it would provide fun play that I'd want to try out.

 

I'd sign up for that anytime. But why even stop there? There are so many ways to make this richer by modifying objectives and/or number of players slightly.

 

Here's to survival of BtZ. Keep playing and good games to all.

Edited by Chickeninja

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So much potential if they add two night hunters. New cutscenes, lobby matchmaking, teamwork. The thought about it makes me so pumped up, however this will probally never happen.

 

Agreed, but the openness to enabling community to work with developer tools gives perhaps some hope. That's a sincere effort to open up Dying Light game world to community, which makes me wonder, regarding all the great looking levels people are coming up with, can anybody inform as to whether there were/are ever plans to allow PvP and Night Hunter play in those?

 

Sure, it's fascinating to run around new creations people have made as Crane, but levels specifically designed for Hunter play would be really fun. I'd join or subscribe to any group fooling around with such things, including experimenting with group size/number of hunters of course: are there any inherent constraints as to player numbers with the game, or would this be impossible to implement?

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While it sounds fun I'm still against multiple night hunters. If it takes more than one to balance the game or make it fun then the whole asymmetric 4v1 concept has failed. If it takes 2 night hunters to make things challenging then the night hunter himself isn't strong enough.

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While it sounds fun I'm still against multiple night hunters. If it takes more than one to balance the game or make it fun then the whole asymmetric 4v1 concept has failed. If it takes 2 night hunters to make things challenging then the night hunter himself isn't strong enough.

 

In an ideal world that is correct, but in the real world, what's fun trumps perhaps any concept because that intangible/undefinable mix that's greater than all its parts is what people pay for.

 

To me concept, aesthetics, logic, consistency, structure, ornamentation, style, narrative etc. will always be secondary to the primary goal: is it fun? But that's just personal taste. I'm sure people play things because they identify with certain genres etc. But personally, I don't care, if it's fun I'll play, no matter the specs. Also, if we look at the hunter-predator relation from which this state-of-affairs is picked from, in nature, then there is rarely some total 50% balance. The balance and asymmetric idea should not be "feature for its own sake"; it should support fun game play. And when I consider what got me hooked in the beginning: day-night cycle, fear of being said prey... then an overpowered dual hunter situation is definitely closer and more consistent with that interpretation of the game, than the current He-Man show, with the same survivors and screen names playing out their dominance fantasies over and over and over.

 

I wonder instead whether the developer tools thing is sincere towards opening up BtZ mode part of the game and modding in general, so that gamers can continue to enjoy the game and extend it, instead of waiting to be spoon fed patches for future balancing that eventually can't/won't be paid for, and whether such ideas are completely off the table and I mistake the marketing hype for serious statements.

Edited by Chickeninja

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I guess you can call me a purist but multiple hunters in my mind is a serious design flaw. It's no longer the game that was marketed to me and I'll feel cheated if we never got the true balance we deserve before morphing the entire mode into something else.

 

There was someone a while ago who posted that btz should be expanded with new zombie types for hunter players and full 16 on 16 human versus zombie death matches. That's where btz ceases to be btz and becomes something else entirely. I'm fine with that but that's not why I play btz. I play for the asymmetric 4v1 gameplay, you as a powerful almost boss like character in a battle of wits against four other players. And I want it to be like the first time I played it with no ohks, duped inventories, glitches spots on the map or any of this other nonsense we deal with today. All this goes away with 2 hunters and suddenly it's a team versus another team which is already done to death. Not to mention with two hunters now I'm dependent on teamwork and the abilities of someone else which before I didn't have to worry about. If I get paired with horrible teammates then I start losing matches because of things that are out of my control and that is more frustrating than losing because of my own ability or against unbalanced game elements.

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I guess you can call me a purist but multiple hunters in my mind is a serious design flaw. It's no longer the game that was marketed to me and I'll feel cheated if we never got the true balance we deserve before morphing the entire mode into something else.

 

That assumes the time and resources to balance things. Sure, everybody is for such balance if it is fun.

 

But if such is not given and the "customize your games for your purposes through dev tools" is serious, then you should be able to play the balanced purist version while I battle dozens of survivors on a space station with multiple hunters. :D

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That assumes the time and resources to balance things. Sure, everybody is for such balance if it is fun.

 

But if such is not given and the "customize your games for your purposes through dev tools" is serious, then you should be able to play the balanced purist version while I battle dozens of survivors on a space station with multiple hunters. :D

 

Way ahead of you man.

 

Been working on a project in the dev tools since about July specifically catered to coop and btz. That being said you might be happy to know that in editor there are options to make respawn points for the zombie and nest spawns. =)

 

I plan to start posting progress pictures and more details of the map soon somewhere on the forums when I'm happy with what I have to present. 

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Way ahead of you man.

 

Been working on a project in the dev tools since about July specifically catered to coop and btz. That being said you might be happy to know that in editor there are options to make respawn points for the zombie and nest spawns. =)

 

I plan to start posting progress pictures and more details of the map soon somewhere on the forums when I'm happy with what I have to present. 

 

Nice + keep up the good work as my zombie can't wait. Any possibility for dual zombie support (or more...) from where you're at?

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Nice + keep up the good work as my zombie can't wait. Any possibility for dual zombie support (or more...) from where you're at?

Hard to tell. Most likely not unless they add new game modes to the actual game itself. 

 

Maybe with mods but making that possible is way beyond my knowledge.

 

There is actually a glitch that allows two hunters in a match. Search for it on youtube. Not sure if it has been patched or not though..

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Chickeninja.

 

I have seen the Double Hunter Glitch and a Glitch Involving Rais Men appearing in the Match and Attacking both Kyle and The Night Hunter.

 

Even though both are considered a Glitch, it proves that the Dying Lights Engine is able to handle it.

 

I see much potential for Techland to Improve and spice up Be The Zombie.

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