Chrimera77

What's Up With The Night Hunter?

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What's up with the Night Hunter?  I just played a game against a single High Level Human and there was almost nothing I could do against him.  At some point in the game I was just making him work for it.  First off all, when I manage to get close enough to pounce he interrupts, fair enough.  I don't expect it to be easy.  But the few times that I did get the drop on him, the game just wouldn't let me use pounce!  AT one point he was just hanging from a ledge.  I was looking right at him and the game would not let me pounce.  Is it because my stamina is low?  I wasn't being hit by any kind of UV light.   Second, every time I stuck him with a spit he just pulled out his shield and the spit had no effect.  This is an obvious exploit.  Third when he is attacking my hives he's surrounded by an enormous amount of flares.  Whenever I try to do a UV Block/tackle he just evades it.  Whenever I do manage to tackle him, again the game just won't let me use my pounce.  I only managed to kill this guy once by using all 4 of my spits using spit smash.  Even then I got lucky because he wasn't able to get to high ground before one of my zombie horde exploded on him.

 

At this point I'm just trying to level up my night hunter to unlock Toxic Spit.  Maybe that might change things.  I only need one more skill point to unlock it.  But the Icing on the cake, I managed to level up in this match, and I didn't get a skill point.

 

Like I said I don't expect it to be easy but something needs to be done.  It seems like Night Hunter mode gives the players a reason to keep playing the game and hording crafting items at the end of the game.  But why would anybody want to be a Night Hunter if all it is to the Human players, is a nuisance.

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What's up with the Night Hunter?  I just played a game against a single High Level Human and there was almost nothing I could do against him.  At some point in the game I was just making him work for it.  First off all, when I manage to get close enough to pounce he interrupts, fair enough.  I don't expect it to be easy.  But the few times that I did get the drop on him, the game just wouldn't let me use pounce!  AT one point he was just hanging from a ledge.  I was looking right at him and the game would not let me pounce.  Is it because my stamina is low?  I wasn't being hit by any kind of UV light.  

 

But was your energy (not health, the bar mid screen) full for the pounce ability and not merely charging?

 

Second, every time I stuck him with a spit he just pulled out his shield and the spit had no effect.  This is an obvious exploit.

 

The shield is used, abused, but they often still get hit, particularly in 1v2+. One on one is another matter, and I agree more difficult, although the other day I did manage to spit over a shield Kyle's head, misleading him into thinking I missed, and immediately ground pounded him off the train into the exploding spit on ground level, which worked.

 

 

Third when he is attacking my hives he's surrounded by an enormous amount of flares.  Whenever I try to do a UV Block/tackle he just evades it.  Whenever I do manage to tackle him, again the game just won't let me use my pounce.  I only managed to kill this guy once by using all 4 of my spits using spit smash.  Even then I got lucky because he wasn't able to get to high ground before one of my zombie horde exploded on him.

 

 

Dunno if people can hack the increased cool down for flares. As Survivor I can only throw down 2 or 3.

 

At this point I'm just trying to level up my night hunter to unlock Toxic Spit.  Maybe that might change things.  I only need one more skill point to unlock it.  But the Icing on the cake, I managed to level up in this match, and I didn't get a skill point.

 

Toxic spit is not a game changer from here although it can be funny: I locked a survivor with two toxic spits in one of the broken trains where nest had spawned. He just camped in the back of the wagon and just healed himself over and over and over, so I had to go in to finish him off, lol.

 

Oh and I forgot to mention the ungodly long range on the UV light.  If there is more then one person in the game.  The night hunter can't even get close.

 

Of course I try to avoid UV Pro Bro encounters, but when they happen I prefer not to drop out. As with most games involving rich strategy, the losing side can try to wait and see if some weakness crops up. Mostly, I get beaten as hunter in dying light in such cases, which might be due to balance issues that people bring up in their posts, my lacking skills, mood and form of the day, or some mix of these things. But it's those rare times, when you have one or two kills, the UV brothers have three nests and are going strong for the last two, that you notice some subtle detail, like somebody getting distracted by a zombie, wall, or horde situation, and bingo leapfrog or a couple of kills in succession just fall into your lap. Psychology of the game changes: survivors realize they were ahead but their work was pointless as they are suddenly behind. Jaws drop and it will become increasingly harder to turn the tide that has turned. Cue the awesome finale music that the game conjures for last nest/kill and Survivor mistakes multiply insanely/irrationally and two Ultimate Survivors will have to pay for the mistake of a Challenger or some scenario like this. Happened to me a few days ago, but indeed, I also got a five nests and no kills loss the other day due to the power of UV magic as well. But then maybe I suck as hunter ;-)

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Join the club of equally frustrated Night hunters trying to plead with Techland that the Hunter mode is terribly imbalanced. If you think one marginally skilled player is bad, try four.

 

Im assuming that Techland thought that the dying light world is naturally balanced and that most players would not have acquired nearly infinite weapons and supplies by now, versus the Hunters 2 spits (3 of the 4 are "blockable" by the shield)to begin a match in all scenarios. You could camp and wait until you get 4 spits, but again any sane and skilled human is running for the nest while you camp and wait.

 

All the Hunter can do is Ground Pound spam which I hate but it's the only option. They'll keep jumping out the way of your predictable tackles. Even if you're lucky to land a ground pound, the player(s) can still hit you, and with gold tier weapons your only option is to run, hide, and heal... again leaving the nest unprotected. The is most annoying with tackles. Techland decided it would be a good idea to force you to capture the moment and slow movement of the tackle opening up the opportunity for the other players to swarm in on you at full speed.

 

welcome to the club

 

You are the hunted

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While I'm not certain or have any insight into the thinking of the development team, it certainly does seem as though the intent of the Night Hunter is not necessarily that the NH is an equal opponent.  It seems like the NH is supposed to be a harder zombie.  The intent appears to be that players allow higher level challenges in that if you can destroy a series of nests (as part of the in game story line) you get rewarded with goodies.  The twist is that instead of a QTE like it seems the parkour challenges are or simply a tougher AI, the opponent is actually run by a human.  This, theoretically, brings a vastly different experience in that you'll have differing skill levels, attacks, defenses, and ways to accomplish the goal of destroying the nest.

 

If that is the case, the end result didn't pan out so well.

 

In some cases the NH is nearly impossible for a player to defend against.  I've come across players that have no clue what they are doing and I'm sure it is as frustrating for them as it is for a NH to go against a team of 4 Ultimate Survivors.

 

Take for instance, the last game I played a single hit is doing over 99 points damage.  Combine that with a miss on a GP (even it was triggered on the same plan as the survivor) and it's a death.  A death with the survivors at or near the nests means that nest is destroyed.

 

Never mind the ridiculous hit box on a drop kick or a death from above.  There are numerous videos of a DK following a NH way into the air for a hit.  I've had a survivor follow me around the corner with a DFA.  I've been tendriling away and believed to be safe only to die from a melee hit.  I think part of the problem is lag and what the host game sees is the final say on what happens.  This means that a NH is ALWAYS at a disadvantage a software level, much less on an ability level.  

 

A miss on a pounce or a tackle means you are locked into the miss animation and that doesn't even start until you hit the ground--same with a DK.  This means if you're in Old Town and fall from a height then you're along for the ride until you hit the ground and then recovery delay.  Contrast that with the lack of any delay on the survivor part for a GP or tackle.  Sure they get knocked back, but they instantly recover.  Hell, they can melee you at the same time.  A GP off a building is of no consequence as the survivor simply grapple hooks back up before he even falls one story.  None of the NH 's attack produces a stun.  A successful attack produces no stun for the survivor while a miss for the NH stuns him.  Where's the logic in that?

 

Granted, it might have all made sense in the beginning when folks didn't know how to fight the NH, but now I'm going up against "Prey" and been having my behind handed to me.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the concept.  Only now I'm not looking for a win, I'm only looking for pounces.  Most of my games recently are extremely one-sided.  I've even been skunked a few times.  If I can get a pounce, then it's a win. 

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Agree on most points with SomeOldDude's post above: love the concept but balancing it out makes everybody have more fun over time.

 

And I agree with this point in particular:

 

None of the NH 's attack produces a stun.  A successful attack produces no stun for the survivor while a miss for the NH stuns him.  Where's the logic in that?

 

I guess the logic originally was that you don't want a Night Hunter with long range abilities, like tendril agility/speed, pounce ability, spits, to also overpower Survivor at close range melee style combat. And while this makes sense, Kyle Cranes abilities have developed somewhat since the above assessment, including more ranged abilities (bow etc.) and higher agility (grapple hook + cool downs, soon apparently vehicles), not to speak of many more deadly close range melee improvements.

 

By this rationale, if btz has some future, then the hunter's close range skills and abilities will have to be sharpened. Examples people mentioned here that I liked, were things like increased and/or more variation in clawing ability, balancing stun behavior as SomeOldDude stated, throwing in more shield ability (minimum 3 shields can be charged at higher speed/rate than now, if UV light cone of survivors is this pronounced), separate cool downs for multiple spits (one can do this to encourage strategic play without blanket increases; for instance more poison spits recharging a bit faster, not being tied to or costing a full horde spit would create more interesting strategy and varied gameplay), along with ability to recharge moving, and I'd decide perhaps to go for last mutation and enjoy that more, even though mutation system does push for one-sidedness in games, making it less interesting for even noob survivors, which I can't see as being helpful to sustaining multiplayer play/fun much, with survivors freaking out and closing their games and hunters increasingly waiting in line.   

 

But if Kyle Crane shows up with the buggy, UV stadium light as flashlight, ranged weapons, and melee stuff... then the hunter should get a star destroyer or something to balance the situation. And to get more people to play the mode as survivor, you could have Zombie Skill Tree be fed by certain kinds of Survivor XP. Done appropriately, this would incentivize more survivor play, feed more zombies, and help both sides see the other side of the equation a bit more.  

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I'd like to see increased stats for the NH at each mutation.  Faster and more powerful melee, further and faster tendril, more resistance to UV with faster recharge, quicker spit pops with increased radius, quicker recovery from GP, tackle or pounce misses, etc.  It would a great reward for wading through each successive 400,000 XP for a mutation.  I don't get why a mutation 0 level 1 NH is essentially the same as a mutation 3 level 1.  They are the same for the first several levels.  Sure the player behind the NH is more experienced, but that's it.  You don't get anything additional until you get into the higher levels, but the "reward" of having to have more XP to level up.

 

With all of the horns on mutated up NH's you'd think you'd cause more damage in a melee and have more resistance to attacks.

 

Winning against a mutated and leveled up NH should harder than heck!  Yes, it would be impossible by a lone new player, but then again he can invite three friends!

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For all of my moaning and groaning, I just played two matches with different players that were fairly even.  Pulled out wins on both!  Woot!  

 

Well, that's two for the past week!

 

Nice!

 

I can't claim that kind of success, especially with my recent 5 Nest 0 Kills loss.  :D

 

Thinking about it strategically, yes, the survivors outplayed me fair and square, but they were also able to revive a few people killed by well placed horde spits. And that's tough as this influences game psychology in a negative way: the survivors were the tough and compact sort, so whenever I did go in for an extra claw after horde spit induced kill, they were just around to finish me, while I felt forced to go in as the survivors were not going to get pounced in normal circumstances.

 

This can often turn a challenge from hunter pov to a pretty much hopeless affair which psychologically parses as "nope, not even superb horde spits can shake em up, not even a fighting chance". This could be another reason that people note, that it's not very motivating to opt to play against skilled survivors from hunter pov. Instant, unlimited healing distorts high level play in this sense because if survivors stay compact, the hunter can have 10 horde kills and still loose 5 Nests to 0; a fact which does not reflect skill of players and the quality of the game play, because of simple logic that a hunter that manages that many horde kills against a skilled team is better than one that doesn't. 0 does not equal 10.

 

And accurate game evaluations, doesn't matter if it's chess, Dying Light, or other fine games of strategy, reflect the facts.

Edited by Chickeninja

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While it might not be good game play, I tend to look at KOed survivors as MINE.  When another player goes in to revive them I attack.  GP, jump, claw, tendril away and come right back.  UV block and UV suppress if I can.  Sometimes I can keep the other players off the KOed player long enough to get the kill.  I think I've been successful in getting the kill about half the time or so.

 

Against really good players I consider myself lucky to get a few XP with spits and GP.  Even a missed pounce gives 50 XP.  So, even a loss provides XP and experience in most cases.  

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While it might not be good game play, I tend to look at KOed survivors as MINE.  When another player goes in to revive them I attack.  GP, jump, claw, tendril away and come right back.  UV block and UV suppress if I can.  Sometimes I can keep the other players off the KOed player long enough to get the kill.  I think I've been successful in getting the kill about half the time or so.

 

Yes, and perhaps one would get more desirable realism if the ability to instant revive was given a 50% chance.

 

Consistent with the survivor realism theme, not every medical intervention in the field is successful, and perhaps the game could reflect that. This would keep the teamwork vibe going that I enjoy as survivor, but would also signal "there is a risk and cost associated with going back for your buddy".

 

 

Against really good players I consider myself lucky to get a few XP with spits and GP.  Even a missed pounce gives 50 XP.  So, even a loss provides XP and experience in most cases.  

 

BTZ's reward system, as others have pointed out, doesn't really reflect that kind of attitude towards pure experience. As you know, the points bonus required for the steep leveling curve rewards wins the most. One win is what? 50 missed pounces? I have no idea, but one could imagine valuing long games with high number of points on both sides, people that choose to play beyond and/or at their current level, or people that play the most games (this would mirror "experience for its own sake" as you mention) on both sides etc. What is the quality of game play that we value? Enough humans for zombies, close calls, not too ambitious play, highly aggressive styles, personalized styles? There are a number of ways to complement and enrich "winning" as a measure.

 

Also appreciate that they did state that BTZ is not actualized to the current release of the Following, with "lots of stuff to figure out and no promises", and the new maps not being "Night Hunter friendly". This openness is better than having hunters salivating for new content, with nothing really around the announced corner. Does break my zombie heart a bit though... :( What? Zombies have a heart? I thought the whole point of zombies...  :rolleyes:

Edited by Chickeninja

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Oh, I bet there is room for human piloted zombie in "The Following," just maybe not a Night Hunter.  Who wants to be a Demolisher?  A super Demolisher that can jump and climb buildings!  Oh, Oh!  A zombie Hulk!  YES, PLEASE!!!  "Zombie Hulk Smash!"  The OHK for this guy would be picking up the survivor and smashing him on the ground!

 

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Oh, I bet there is room for human piloted zombie in "The Following," just maybe not a Night Hunter.  Who wants to be a Demolisher?  A super Demolisher that can jump and climb buildings!  Oh, Oh!  A zombie Hulk!  YES, PLEASE!!!  "Zombie Hulk Smash!"  The OHK for this guy would be picking up the survivor and smashing him on the ground!

 

 

Lol, and the kill notification would read "Survivor has been fanned by Zombie Hulk".

 

Hopefully we can trade in our Night Hunter mutations/levels for some perks, like Hulk jetpack, moves like above or even these, especially the finish move:

 

 

Faith in zombies would get rewarded that way. B)

Edited by Chickeninja

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Here's a good example of why this game isn't fun with some players.  They suck the fin right out!  Exploits, reviving dead (not KOed) players, weapons with abnormally high (136 HP) damage, etc.  There's one particular player who does sometimes host a game, but most of time joins games in progress.  I generally bail out, but I stayed just to show what NHs are up against.

 

Yes, watch players just stand there and use their shield to avoid spits.  Go in for melee and they dodge just a bit too far.  Then two hit kills on the missed GP.

 

At around 8:45 watch another uncanny Insta-shield and back to UV to the rear to avoid the pounce.  Yes, I was trying to lock him into an interrupt to get the spit to stick, but it went off faster than I could get there.  I spit, it goes past him as he turns around.  How does he even know it's there?  He can see me coming I'm glowing like a lantern with my UV block on.  I'm well within UVing distance yet he just stands there and the instant before the spit goes off the shield is in place and I'm pouncing.  Only to have the shield be replaced by the UV and pounce interrupted. Wow!

 

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Here's a good example of why this game isn't fun with some players.  They suck the fin right out!  Exploits, reviving dead (not KOed) players, weapons with abnormally high (136 HP) damage, etc.  There's one particular player who does sometimes host a game, but most of time joins games in progress.  I generally bail out, but I stayed just to show what NHs are up against.

 

Yes, watch players just stand there and use their shield to avoid spits.  Go in for melee and they dodge just a bit too far.  Then two hit kills on the missed GP.

 

At around 8:45 watch another uncanny Insta-shield and back to UV to the rear to avoid the pounce.  Yes, I was trying to lock him into an interrupt to get the spit to stick, but it went off faster than I could get there.  I spit, it goes past him as he turns around.  How does he even know it's there?  He can see me coming I'm glowing like a lantern with my UV block on.  I'm well within UVing distance yet he just stands there and the instant before the spit goes off the shield is in place and I'm pouncing.  Only to have the shield be replaced by the UV and pounce interrupted. Wow!

 

people that exploit these things need to be banned from the game, for a while. at least 2-3 months. exploits create grief and unbalance. sure these little nerds think its funny and not their fault because they didnt make it. well sure but your using it to cheat sooo....your banned. so we got 2 problems, guys like this cheating calling it glitches. did you get the name from the video? find out who he is on facebook and go kick his head in, and his parents for raising an idiot

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I wouldn't call it cheating i call it skill. I could do that although i dont use shield. He knew you was coming and from which direction, sees your spit and blocks its then instant switch item and uvs you from behind cos he saw u in the first place. Mago is a good hunter and a good human im not sure what the problem is?

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While Mago may very well be that good, I'm running into these just-in-time shields more often than the number of hours in-game would suggest to be simply a high level of skill. Rarely do I see Ultimate Survivor level players who exhibit high level of play use shields at all. I found it interesting that Mago choose to use the shields exploit instead of just dodging away. Maybe he thought he had been stuck with the spot, I don't know.

 

I think the major point here how do we differentiate the really good players from the cheaters? Because I've come across so many modes players that I'm sceptical of really good players. Uncanny, but legit, game play is being met with the same scepticism. Folks shouldn't be able to activate invasions on modded games nor join an invasion with a modded game. Highly skilled players should welcome that so they are not accused of cheating.

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I wonder if skill is perhaps overrated in gaming, with notable exception of those that invest their lives in competing in international events, tournaments etc. To me, those guys are pro, in other words people that make a living out of a passion.

 

But for having fun in my free time? I prefer not to get too skilled or take myself, wins or losses, too seriously. Jeez, I just want to forget about work and not have to grind/work a game to squeeze little droplets of fun out of it. That's just work... again! :D

 

And when games start to feel like work, I back off as boredom usually isn't far behind.

 

Dealing with people who overuse dodge and/or shield makes the game feel like that at times. Spits just become mostly useless and one picks up the crumbs of fun that one can. Thankfully I do still run into people who take their gaming easy and don't overuse dodge/shield, letting more interesting games emerge. They seem to be getting rarer, but I can't really tell. Maybe its just who I connect to.  :rolleyes: 

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Depends on what cheat do you think they are using? For me I dont like shield because it can take damage and break. I rather have something else like potion or stasis. I have a lot of footage of my gameplay on youtube. But how is shield an exploit? I think he just fast switches and quickly uses shield only take 1 second if you have your key binding good. Some like shield some don't but most think shield is not that good compared to other items you can have, i don't like shield.


I wonder if skill is perhaps overrated in gaming, with notable exception of those that invest their lives in competing in international events, tournaments etc. To me, those guys are pro, in other words people that make a living out of a passion.

 

But for having fun in my free time? I prefer not to get too skilled or take myself, wins or losses, too seriously. Jeez, I just want to forget about work and not have to grind/work a game to squeeze little droplets of fun out of it. That's just work... again! :D

 

And when games start to feel like work, I back off as boredom usually isn't far behind.

 

Dealing with people who overuse dodge and/or shield makes the game feel like that at times. Spits just become mostly useless and one picks up the crumbs of fun that one can. Thankfully I do still run into people who take their gaming easy and don't overuse dodge/shield, letting more interesting games emerge. They seem to be getting rarer, but I can't really tell. Maybe its just who I connect to.  :rolleyes:

 

that is exactly right. I just want to relax but this is my relaxing mode. I used to play some games competitively but i dont like to do that anymore. I can say im at 90% of my potential in DL. If i was competitive then i would have to study the map and every corner to use the map to my advantage which i simply refuse to do as that is not fun for me.

 

Also the thing i dont understand is how are survivors cheating or glitching? I don't think mago was cheating...

Edited by Ninja

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Depends on what cheat do you think they are using? For me I dont like shield because it can take damage and break. I rather have something else like potion or stasis. I have a lot of footage of my gameplay on youtube. But how is shield an exploit? I think he just fast switches and quickly uses shield only take 1 second if you have your key binding good. Some like shield some don't but most think shield is not that good compared to other items you can have, i don't like shield.

The problem is exactly that: they can quick switch at the last second and negate an otherwise well placed spit. Hunter spits are not infinite, in a 1v1 setting it takes up to 2 minutes just to charge up one spit. That's more than enough in between time to destroy one nest and move to the next. Add to that fact that the new spit timers are shared and spits become an extremely rare commodity.

 

So why is it fair that a survivor can quick switch to a shield in a fraction of a second - doesn't even have to USE it just have it equipped - and block spits it all directions, even ones stuck directly on them? It's not. It takes so much just to get that one spit and to deny a hunter what was rightfully a direct hit is wrong.

 

A hunter without his spits is quite literally nothing. He completely depends on them to create situations that set up his next big attack as the game devs describe it. The shield takes away the most important aspect of his character and either renders him completely useless at long range out forces him to take major risks in order to guarantee a spit connects.

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I don't know but... A shield does not block a spit right on the survivor nor does it block in all directions it only blocks from the front and not the back, that is why mago turn towards the spit to block it.

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I don't know but... A shield does not block a spit right on the survivor nor does it block in all directions it only blocks from the front and not the back, that is why mago turn towards the spit to block it.

It blocks spits that are stuck on survivors, I've seen this happen many times. There might be some footage of it around here actually. It also doesn't matter which direction you face the shield will block it. This has been confirmed by a dev and flagged as a bug that will be fixed in the next patch.

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really I remember i tested the spit on survivors i cant remember exactly if it blocks it but i remember it doesn't - its probably from the back they cannot block. But one thing im sure is that shield does not block from behind i definitely tested that a few months ago with my mate. That was the main reason why i didnt want to use the shield.

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Check a post of mine a page or two back: Teflon Survivor. I originally thought the wall had somehow blocked a stuck spit. I even slowed it down. After a couple of views, though, you can see he deploys his shield at the very last spit second and then re-equips his UV light to interrupt a pounce.

 

I've got another where I didn't know a shields could block a missed spit. I was questioning whether this guy was cheating. Nope, just using an exploit.

 

I have other, unposted videos where you can hear them deploying the shield. They just stand there and have no worries about spits.

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I dunno but all i know when i tested it with a friend is that you have to USE the shield for it to block and also it does not block spits from behind you have to use the shield and be in front of the spit. Just equipping it does not work i have tested this already with a friend. As for the shield blocking the spit when it has stuck on you, i think it only blocks the spit if it stuck on your front and not back, not sure about this i have tested this too but cant remember the outcome. I will try test it out with my friend later, but for me shield is not good....My 3 other team mates dont use shield too.

Edited by Ninja

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