Pete Donnelly

BtZ Feedback Wanted: 03/21/2018

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Still not much desire for 3v1s or 4v1s from both sides on PC, given Nightmare difficulty survivor settings. Feels like Hunter charity and although I enjoy making hunters feel good about their skills by playing survivor pinata, it's starting to feel like "bad work - hunter therapy" instead of "good game".

Hope things get optimized and wish folks fun out there nonetheless. Unfortunately for fans of the game mode, the record is starting to indicate that such optimization is rare. So people wouldn't be too wrong to dial back expectations because "yes, there are updates and fixes due to community feedback", but also "yes, response time is very slow"- that is if problems get addressed in the first place,  which isn't a given.

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This seems like a survey for kids at your local elementary school, to be honest, but you're the dev here.

Survivor

One thing I like: The added challenge for 1v1s

One thing I dislike: The Atlantic Ocean of spits I'm forced to swim through

Hunter

One thing I like: The 2v1 damage reduction

One thing I dislike: I have nigh-infinite spits and UV blocks

Overall

One thing I want: Nerf the damn spit/UV block regen

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whether you'll read it or not, I'll leave this list of issues with the PvP in order of importance:

1. Spits and UV block timers need a serious tone down for 3 and 4v1s, moderate one for 2v1s

2. Telebombers (although after 3 years of them being in the game, I doubt we'll ever see a fix to this)

3. Flares. You need an additional one in team games so that it's not completely impossible to survive a UV spit without a team. Either that, or increase their duration to match a UV spit's duration.

4. UV range needs a slight buff in 3 and 4v1s

Everything else is more or less fine, or at least not a pressing matter. To be honest, DFA could also use a very small buff, but only dependent on the amount of players in a team, so that it'd be strongest in 1v1s, hardest to land in 4v1s. Otherwise don't bother, we definitely don't want the old DFA nonsense of getting vacuum sucked from 2 meters away while airborne being back, or getting jumped on from a van while helpless in an animation.

 

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WHEN I PLAY AS HUNTER (Important note: I am not a veteran player, I've played about 25 hours as Hunter)

  • #1 thing I like: overall feeling, speed and radius of tendrils grab, colors of the visual filter, and sound of screaming like a pig while scanning for survivors :D
  • #2 thing I like: telebombers)) Saved me some dangerous moments couple of times after I got ripped.
  • #3 thing I like: newbie survivors' panic when they got spit by Horde summon)) Veteran just go on roof with a flare.
  • #1 thing that bugs me: survivors can dodge tackle even in mid-air, that is not logical at all (how can human jump while falling?)
  • #2 thing that bugs me: when I spit on someone in Old Town, they just hide in water until effect is gone, and I can do nothing about it
  • #3 thing that bugs me: survivor can easily evade pounce by UV at you even if you grab him from behind (if you manage to deal deadly attack from behind, it should definitely be deadly)
  • #4 thing that bugs me: I cannot avoid DFA once its animation started (survivors can avoid tackle and pounce by pressing a single button, so why hunter is unable to dodge by pressing a single button as well?)
  • #5 thing that bugs me: the power of 4 UV lights in 1vs4 matches (even with UV flickering nerf, 4 survivors UV me to no energy in 1.5 seconds, so they always have several UV's up and ready).
  • #6 thing that bugs me: weapon radius. When survivor slices me, visually his sword is 3 meters away from me. Looks like I am not killed with metal of the sword, but with some magic.
  • #7 thing that bugs me: some nests in Slums spawn right near Safe Zone (5 meters away). No matter what spit I apply - survivor just go 5 meters and hide in safe zone.

Overall, gameplay as a Hunter seems completely scattered. When I, newbie hunter, play against newbie survivors - I completely dominate them (10 kills, 0 to 1 death). When play against veterans - they dominate me (dodge every single attack and match ending with 0 to 1 kills and 20 deaths). Would be great to see some balancing depending on player's rank. There could be different ways, like buffing some skills if player's win ratio is below 0.5 and nerfing skills a bit if your win ratio is 2 or more. Or adding several leagues (noob league - can enter only if you rank is low or your w/r ratio is low, normal league, pro league). It's just a general idea, but something needs to be done because playing against veterans who knows every bug and glitch is NOT fun, and playing against people who do not know that UV blocks pounce is not fun as well.

Also, people who play as survivor don't like telebombers. But if devs just remove telebombers without any compensation - horde spit would be useless - survivors will be just traveling on roofs completely safe. While teleporting bombers doesn't seem logic and I am sure doesn't feel fun for survovirs, I'd like this spit to be changed next way: many bombers spawn on ground and many virals spawn on roofs. It will still bring panic and distract survivor's attention even on roofs to fight those virals, but I'm sure it would me more fun than insta-explosion in the face from nowhere :)

Edited by Dark Nero

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  • WHEN I PLAY AS SURVIVOR 
    • #1 thing I like: Bounties/Events/New Content
    • #1 thing that bugs me: When you get out of the water or are near one of them zombies who explodes your vision gets blurry for a few seconds. I personally could do without that effect though would be happy already if the duration was brought back a little. I think its very annoying.
  • WHEN I PLAY AS HUNTER
    • #1 thing I like: Close to everything.
    • #1 thing that bugs me: few things bother me: 
    • - Most games i joined people left like instantly which i kinda can relate to but nevertheless its a problem.
    • - One game i was playing this girl and she totally whiped the floor with me. Not once, not twice but like dozens of times. Didnt feel like she was cheating but she was way overpowered compared to me. To build some confidence in new players like myself you might wanna seperate experienced players from the new ones for at least a few levels..
    • - If you add a way to report players right after a game we would solve the cheaterproblem in no time. From like 10 games i entered 3 of them were clearly cheating (flying around n stuff lol) and being killed by a cheater simply sucks.
  • OVERALL
    • #1 thing I want: - increased experience/levelcap, more skills and 2 hunters versus 8 humans. Furthermore a system that instead of reporting someone we can honor opponents after a game.
Edited by ZeroFcksGiven
Took out lame reasoning and edited the #1 i want

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  • WHEN I PLAY AS SURVIVOR
    • #1 thing I like: being able to play with friends. its super cool to be able to partner up and take down a hunter. maybe increase the amount of humans/hunter per lobby?
    • #1 thing that bugs me: there is a rather steep learning curve regarding the skill level. im not gonna lie, im quite honestly a rather horrible human, because i have trouble just keeping up with everything. maybe if we could like mess with the controls on console at rewire the buttons that would help.
  • WHEN I PLAY AS HUNTER
    • #1 thing I like: tendril sprint. im going to make an educated guess and assume that tendril sprint was not meant to be in the game, but it has became such a huge part of my playstyle that it would honestly suck alot if it got removed. please keep it in the game. 
    • #1 thing that bugs me: animation locking. i can deal with the spammers easy enough, but drop kicking and dodge spamming can be quite a tad infuriating. now granted, when you miss a tackle you should get punished, so i'm not terribly upset with that. but dropkick spamming is still an issue
  • OVERALL
    • #1 thing I want: hmm, im not really sure so ill put a couple of things that would be nice/interesting. 
    • a universal mic feature. so you could talk to humans as a hunter. 
    • more then one hunter/4 humans. i feel like this would create a lot more chaos and fun. 
    • POSSIBLY more skills. if you do end up adding a new skill or something of the likes please do extensive testing.

thats really everything. thanks for engaging with the community.

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11 hours ago, lemonlover996 said:
  • #1 thing that bugs me: animation locking. i can deal with the spammers easy enough, but drop kicking and dodge spamming can be quite a tad infuriating. now granted, when you miss a tackle you should get punished, so i'm not terribly upset with that. but dropkick spamming is still an issue

There is an instant tackle that can help out with DK chains. 

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I don't play btz so my settings are on never so my opinion is simple on the quick find match can you please have a filter or something that stops me from being put into btz when I join other people's game. Also when I have been forced into playing btz from what I have seen there has been mismatches on ranks as I was in a game with 1 other player whos rank was prey and myself as prey playing against juggernaut. Once I checked that's 2 rank 1 vs a rank 8. It's should be like world of tanks where you face max of 2 ranks above or below and have a system where the night hunter could lose ranks/abilities aswell. And also the night hunter should have cool down on tackle and ground pound as they spam it

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I'm extremely late on this topic, but I still want to throw what I have to say.

Also what I have to say is mostly around 1v1.

  • WHEN I PLAY AS SURVIVOR
  • #1 thing I like: Using long-range weapons (guns, bow, and crossbow). I am a fan of fps games, and whenever I land shots with either hit-scan, or projectile I feel a sense of satisfaction that through all the time, and practice I put using these weapons; landing hits with them is the most satisfying thing ever.
  • #1 thing that bugs me: While I enjoy using these long-range weapons most are weak, lost important values, or are just buggy. Most guns can't be used because of how little damage they deal, and with Hunter's Tendril Sprint giving him insane movement speed, it makes even trying to land a hit less rewarding. Elemental factors for the Bow and Crossbow don't even exist. What made these arrows, and bolts special was their elemental attribute which gave slightly more damage, and with that removed all that's left are just plain normal arrows, and bolts. Explosive Arrows are too buggy as when trying to shoot at certain angles (behind a wall, peeking a corner, or near a zombie when not aiming at him) they explode in your face, and the explosions don't follow accurately as the multiple explosions might randomly hit your face. Sometimes hitting direct hits with Toxic Bolts doesn't give the toxic effect. Another bug is that switching arrow types sometimes doesn't work as I press/hold the switch button, yet I am not switching arrow types. The headshot mechanic is not rewarding as the Hunter's head hitbox is way too small, and the reward for even landing a hit isn't even that great on top of the fact that the Hunter moves incredibly fast with Tendril Sprint, whereas in the past if you landed a headshot with arrows/bolts you are rewarded for your good aim with massive damage. The Crossbow damage nerf is also a problem as well. I'll admit it is easier to land shots with than the bow, but it is still difficult to land those shots. The bow and Crossbow are both projectile weapons, and it takes skill to land those shots especially when a Hunter is flying, and running around constantly at 200mph.

                 Now if the elemental arrows, and bolts are not going to receive their previous damage abilities at least make it so it does something like gives debuffs against Hunter. An idea that came up was to make the arrows, and bolts give debuffs depending if it was an AoE hit, or direct hit. Examples of this would be that Electricity makes the Hunters movement buggy for a certain amount of time. Another idea I have is make Bolts, or Arrow heads out the Grenades. Freeze grenades could be made into bolts, or arrows and could slow the Hunter, and so that the weapons that don't get much use are actually useful. I mean the Fire arrow is basically a Molotov strapped on. Guns could use a buff as well, and I'm not wanting this to be Call of Duty to make guns overpowered; I just want them to be a viable option.

I am not much of a Hunter player, but I'll still say how I feel when playing as one.

  • WHEN I PLAY AS HUNTER
    • #1 thing I like: The damage balance across all versus scenarios, and it feels great to finally have 2v1 get its own damage scaling.
    • #1 thing that bugs me: Movement feels clunky, and not similar to Survivor. Maybe this is just me compared to other high-skilled Hunter players, but I don't feel like I'm in control when playing as a Hunter as it feels slightly clunky. An example would be trying to turn left, or right; or even if I jump I would feel a delay. Whereas when I play as a Survivor my movement is precise, and responds without delay. Another thing that bothers me is how bright UV Light and flares can get, which sometimes blinds me as I can't see clearly where I am going. If there was a way to tone down the brightness of the UV Light and flares that would be nice. Climbing cliffs is also very annoying.
  • OVERALL
  • Tackle needs a nerf. The instance where I am in a high place trying to avoid the horde, or the Hunter, and he manages to Tackle me from a safe place is just unfair. An example of this would be a Survivor hanging on the green walls on the bridges in the Slums, and Countryside. Hunter can reach this height making a safe place obsolete should a fight happen there, and the horde appears. Another issue with tackle is that when a Hunter lands a tackle he can then initiate another one by standing still. As far as I'm concerned tackle doesn't work by standing still. Last issue I have with tackle is how quickly it can be initiated after a failed pounce. Should a Hunter miss his tackle it leaves the Survivor there in the air where he can do a few options of either attacking, or escaping. A Hunter can quickly short-hop, and turn around in order to do another tackle. The issue with this is that the Survivor has no escape option as Tackle's range is very long.
  • Autobalance. It still sucks. The fact that I, when playing as a Survivor, get punished for playing optimally, and receive all these additional chupacabra that I have to deal with; and Hunters get quick regens for spits, shields, and a fast respawn for either making mistakes, or playing poorly is unfair. Inexperienced Hunters can constantly spam spits like no tomorrow until he gets a lucky shot all the while he keeps his distance, and spam shields if his energy is low as well making it next to impossible to even drain his energy as the effectiveness of the UV Light seems to be cut in half feels incredibly annoying, and a chore to deal with. Experienced Hunters can use all this stuff as well as they can do the spam as listed above, but do spit smashes, and UV heals making it hard to kill. Now I understand how important it is to defend a nest, but as a match goes on a Hunter respawning very quickly acts more like an unnecessary handicap as he can just throw his life out there, and spam spits, shields, etc with the additional buffs he receives for losing, and the time to kill a single spawn is exactly the same when respawns, and all this for him dying due to his own mistakes. Survivors have to deal with one more spawn at each nest, buggy zombies, and buggy goons. The zombies, and goons respawn randomly meaning that if I take my time to kill a goon, and dies he'll just suddenly respawn back making me waste more of my time on top of the fact I have to deal with them, or risk taking damage and/or getting stunned.
  • Ghost Claw, a glitch that allows a Hunter to quickly claw down Survivors incredibly fast. When Hunter players use this tactic the Survivor cannot retaliate in anyway as he is constantly stunned by the claw hits. Fix this please.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Hank J. Wimbleton said:

I am not much of a Hunter player, but I'll still say how I feel when playing as one.

  • WHEN I PLAY AS HUNTER
    • #1 thing I like: The damage balance across all versus scenarios, and it feels great to finally have 2v1 get its own damage scaling.
    • #1 thing that bugs me: Movement feels clunky, and not similar to Survivor. Maybe this is just me compared to other high-skilled Hunter players, but I don't feel like I'm in control when playing as a Hunter as it feels slightly clunky. An example would be trying to turn left, or right; or even if I jump I would feel a delay. Whereas when I play as a Survivor my movement is precise, and responds without delay. Another thing that bothers me is how bright UV Light and flares can get, which sometimes blinds me as I can't see clearly where I am going. If there was a way to tone down the brightness of the UV Light and flares that would be nice. Climbing cliffs is also very annoying.
  • OVERALL
  • Tackle needs a nerf. The instance where I am in a high place trying to avoid the horde, or the Hunter, and he manages to Tackle me from a safe place is just unfair. An example of this would be a Survivor hanging on the green walls on the bridges in the Slums, and Countryside. Hunter can reach this height making a safe place obsolete should a fight happen there, and the horde appears. Another issue with tackle is that when a Hunter lands a tackle he can then initiate another one by standing still. As far as I'm concerned tackle doesn't work by standing still. Last issue I have with tackle is how quickly it can be initiated after a failed pounce. Should a Hunter miss his tackle it leaves the Survivor there in the air where he can do a few options of either attacking, or escaping. A Hunter can quickly short-hop, and turn around in order to do another tackle. The issue with this is that the Survivor has no escape option as Tackle's range is very long.
  • Autobalance. It still sucks. The fact that I, when playing as a Survivor, get punished for playing optimally, and receive all these additional chupacabra that I have to deal with; and Hunters get quick regens for spits, shields, and a fast respawn for either making mistakes, or playing poorly is unfair. Inexperienced Hunters can constantly spam spits like no tomorrow until he gets a lucky shot all the while he keeps his distance, and spam shields if his energy is low as well making it next to impossible to even drain his energy as the effectiveness of the UV Light seems to be cut in half feels incredibly annoying, and a chore to deal with. Experienced Hunters can use all this stuff as well as they can do the spam as listed above, but do spit smashes, and UV heals making it hard to kill. Now I understand how important it is to defend a nest, but as a match goes on a Hunter respawning very quickly acts more like an unnecessary handicap as he can just throw his life out there, and spam spits, shields, etc with the additional buffs he receives for losing, and the time to kill a single spawn is exactly the same when respawns, and all this for him dying due to his own mistakes. Survivors have to deal with one more spawn at each nest, buggy zombies, and buggy goons. The zombies, and goons respawn randomly meaning that if I take my time to kill a goon, and dies he'll just suddenly respawn back making me waste more of my time on top of the fact I have to deal with them, or risk taking damage and/or getting stunned.
  • Ghost Claw, a glitch that allows a Hunter to quickly claw down Survivors incredibly fast. When Hunter players use this tactic the Survivor cannot retaliate in anyway as he is constantly stunned by the claw hits. Fix this please.

 

 

Tackle is fine as it is. It is already easily dodged and can even dodge during animations that you normally can't jump in. Such as ground pound. A survivor can dodge a tackle in pretty much every scenario possible, sometimes even dodging without looking at the Night Hunter. 

The range is only 5 meters, 1.7 meters longer than dropkick. 5 meters really isn't even that long of a distance. 6 or 7 meters though? That would be too much as hunters would be able to tackle from the top of some roofs in old town to ground level. Also the standing still tackle is an exploit, a cheap one but it is needed. If we don't get instant tackle then night hunters would just get animation abused. A survivor can instantly dropkick if they hit an object right in front of the hunter after a tackle, the standing still prevents this. The tackle is easily dodged anyways. Same goes for the other instant tackle methods, without them, 90% of the time a hunter will get dropkick chained, unable to do anything, or just get hit by combos that the survivor doesn't deserve to hit. This would lead to death for the hunter or force them to flee, especially against highly skilled players. 

Autobalance 100% needs to go away, all of it.

 

Ghost claw is good to have as well. Night Hunter booster nerfs claw damage already, hunters have to claw twice to get the damage they would normally get from one claw. Shield blocks claws as well. I'm not saying ghost claw needs to stay, but I am saying that it is useful at times. Its one thing to do it here and there but the players that just ground pound spit and then ghost claw to death are just scummy imo. A gradual decrease in damage after consecutive claws would be a nice fix for this. 

 

The only other issue I have with your post is why are only hunter exploits mentioned? Why aren't survivor exploits mentionee?

 

Backsliding, Fire + Explosives, Dropping Grenades, Animation canceling with shield, bozak/ranger bow, and grappling hook. The list can go on and on.

 

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20 hours ago, Renfur said:

 Also the standing still tackle is an exploit, a cheap one but it is needed.

This is a kind of point however, that illustrates an issue with BtZ mode: on the one hand, you can argue "that's just part of the game now and therefore necessary", but this is a liberal argument that assumes everybody has access to perfect information and will use that information responsibly "within the spirit of the game".

But a large number of hunters I'd say, have no access to the ability or the information necessary to perform it, for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the tedious skill tree restriction, which is fine as a training method, when somebody opts for that; but if folks want more matches, then the hunter skill tree may lead to folks quitting their zombie careers and therefore decreasing total match numbers, as they might not want to put in 50 or so hours to deserve the right to feel what a fully specced hunter feels like in the first place, besides the unfortunate beginning hunters that want to rank up and that too often only have the bro brigades of highly experienced survivors to contend with, with little to no abilities at the start of their skill tree... essentially this encourages cheating and using others' saves etc. for hunters.

There are a few ways to instant tackle, and yet I rarely see the responsible "within the spirit of the game use" you appear to assume. More community effort and coordination is required, and if the exploit is legit, as you seem to assume, then their mechanics should be featured in more hints than "cars lessen impact of falls" and be part of updating said hints. Same of course for survivor exploits but one veers into the costs of such arguments: if the game mode requires dozens of exploits to be legitimized as emergent gameplay, then the occurrences of overpowered combos and moves in various situations multiply... which require more buffs and nerfs, which in turn require more exploits to balance them out and on and on.

The attitude of folks keeping exploits to themselves and not finding responsible ways of sharing them for the community to survive and enjoy themselves as a whole, with higher numbers of quality matches for everybody, is however clearly against the spirit of the game mode in this state. That is unless you want to be forever overpowered. I have no interest in such and often play public with weak survivors or whoever seems to be around, and observe far too many high level hunters AND survivors hiding exploits from each other for transparent attempts at maintaining advantages for themselves and their local groups.

Whether the game mode, perhaps in future incarnations or patches, clarifies itself by reducing the number of exploits, with serious optimization OR whether it embraces these exploits as a fun thing that defines the game: I don't lean either way. That the community not disintegrate and that folks can enjoy that fact and their games more, seems more relevant. What appears to not be a "bad exploit" also depends on experience btw. What may appear balanced and valid to somebody with a thousand hours may not be so for folks who cannot access how to perform certain moves, combos etc. in certain situations.

Informational advantage implies the game is imbalanced before the match begins, and with so many exploits and cheating opportunities, if we value genuine game play or have competitive aspirations, then this works against the game mode's survival, as nobody enjoys games being at an informational disadvantage to promote the ego trips of a few confused folks. This forum, despite the spam, has countered this tendency despite the many disagreements with folks sharing exploits, cheats they experience others using etc. Fun games to everybody volunteering their time and information here and thanks to everybody posting and pointing towards how we believe the game mode to be optimized (keep it up!), along with the devs of course, who face far more pressures/difficulties in their professional lives than the constant whining and complaining of hunters and survivors around these parts. :)

Edited by Chickeninja

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Exploits are openly shared, typically if someone doesn't know an exploit at this point its either because they are new to the game (less than 300h), dont actively talk/play with good players, or watch videos of Good players playing. Most exploits are very easy to figure out. 

Exploits are shared via a video, community chats, players teaching eachother, etc. 

The only reason instant tackles are not openly talked about or explained in video is because of the devs. They would get rid of it like they did with the old instant tackle. 

3 hours ago, Chickeninja said:

Fun games to everybody volunteering their time and information here and thanks to everybody posting and pointing towards how we believe the game mode to be optimized (keep it up!), along with the devs of course, who face far more pressures/difficulties in their professional lives than the constant whining and complaining of hunters and survivors around these parts. :)

You do realize devs don't check these forums often unless they are told to check, right? 

They can't be arsed anymore, as pointed out by DigitalScapes.

"Alpha Prodigy: Fix your game, please.

DigitalScapes3: I tried."

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59 minutes ago, Renfur said:

Exploits are openly shared, typically if someone doesn't know an exploit at this point its either because they are new to the game (less than 300h), dont actively talk/play with good players, or watch videos of Good players playing. Most exploits are very easy to figure out. 

Exploits are shared via a video, community chats, players teaching eachother, etc. 

The only reason instant tackles are not openly talked about or explained in video is because of the devs. They would get rid of it like they did with the old instant tackle.

That makes my point: such information is not accessible to everybody. And why should anybody have to "actively talk to" who you or I consider to be "good players", or even watch videos of such players? Tackling is a basic and essential mechanism of the game mode. It's as if when somebody's starting a board - or video game, they have to first enter into relationships with some allegedly good players, to figure out how to move pieces or roll dice. A game that fails to clarify its own basic rules and mechanisms speaks for itself.

That said, I do know of information that was volunteered here in the past, where Techland seemed less than graceful in implementing what seemed to be valid points the community made and indeed, they mostly proceeded with a bulldozer's sensitivity.

I'd just watch myself before blaming anybody. Devs have higher ups too and who knows what their agendas or budgets are? E.g. What if devs are not given sufficient resources or time to optimize the game mode in favor of some other Techland projects, and the community gets its panties in a twist because patching the game mode at this point is low priority or some similar scenario?

59 minutes ago, Renfur said:

You do realize devs don't check these forums often unless they are told to check, right? 

They can't be arsed anymore, as pointed out by DigitalScapes.

"Alpha Prodigy: Fix your game, please.

DigitalScapes3: I tried."

That sort of statement doesn't clarify Techland's stance on the status of exploits. Particularly the part about where the community has to shut its mouth for fear of bad updates and the wrong nerfs and buffs. That's damaging for players, their experience, as well as studios and their developers. In the long run, everybody loses. This dynamic has to be reversed in favor of more transparent and sensitive approaches. Blaming each other and keeping secrets just fans the flames and leads to worse patches, as everybody's seen by now. :rolleyes:

 

Edited by Chickeninja

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21 hours ago, Chickeninja said:

I'd just watch myself before blaming anybody. Devs have higher ups too and who knows what their agendas or budgets are? E.g. What if devs are not given sufficient resources or time to optimize the game mode in favor of some other Techland projects, and the community gets its panties in a twist because patching the game mode at this point is low priority or some similar scenario?

I understand that companies have budgets as well as other projects to work on. The issue is they don't really reach out to the community and inform us. They don't actively check forums at all, you would have to flood their media for 2 weeks just to get a single message through and then you are lucky if you get a decent response. That's how we came to the 4/5 updated. Flooded their twitter media until it was pushed up the ladder. It takes less than 30 minutes to change values and test it a little bit. Sometimes they gotta add new code but that is rare as of lately and the most extensive task would be modifying the animations, which is not going to happen often.

Most of the DROPs were less than satisfactory as well. Sure it is free content and that's nice, but why ask the community what we want when they don't plan to deliver what we want since they already had the next 5 drops made already?

21 hours ago, Chickeninja said:

Tackling is a basic and essential mechanism of the game mode. It's as if when somebody's starting a board - or video game, they have to first enter into relationships with some allegedly good players, to figure out how to move pieces or roll dice. A game that fails to clarify its own basic rules and mechanisms speaks for itself.

It doesn't't clarify the standing still tackle because it is an exploit. It works similar to the old instant tackle. The mechanic is not intended to be there but it is a very useful mechanic for punishing those who want to wait until you are locked in an animation which you cannot escape, just to dfa you or use some other combo that will take you down to 60 health or lower and force you to flee and repeat the process. If a mechanic is not intended, why would a game teach you to exploit it's mechanics? That makes no sense. Hence why you have to find experienced players who know the exploit and are willing to explain it since there aren't tutorials (because we don't want it to get patched since it is a necessary mechanic). 

21 hours ago, Chickeninja said:

Particularly the part about where the community has to shut its mouth for fear of bad updates and the wrong nerfs and buffs. That's damaging for players, their experience, as well as studios and their developers.

We would talk about it more if we knew it wouldn't get removed asap. We saw what happened with instant tackle, it was an exploit devs didn't intend to be a thing and it was removed once it gained publicity. Instead of listening to the veteran players of the PvP of this game, they justified their update with what the new, clueless players were crying about. 

"Changes are made based on a combination of 3 things.  

  1. Feedback from our players (like all of you in this forum)
  2. Feedback from our own team
  3. Stats (we gather a multitude of stats we can break down in many ways... maps/team sizes/skill ratings/versions of the game/ etc.)

Changes are not made based on just one of the three..."

Guess they used 1 & 2 to justify the patch. But wait, lets not forget that one patch where Night Hunter would lose almost all of it's velocity when turning 90 degrees quickly. When Pete introduced that patch, he only used his own feedback (They do patches based on more than 1 of the 3 topics listed, right?) on that because he believed PC Hunters should not be faster than console hunters, in return the community came back and gave them a LOT of negativity which led to the patch being reverted. 

My point is, we don't talk openly due to devs making decisions like the tendril patch. And even if they do patch something in a poor way, it would be like that for months before we get more responses from the dev team. 

  •  

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23 hours ago, Renfur said:

 

I understand that companies have budgets as well as other projects to work on. The issue is they don't really reach out to the community and inform us. They don't actively check forums at all, you would have to flood their media for 2 weeks just to get a single message through and then you are lucky if you get a decent response.

Why are the fonts automatically greyed out on my end btw?

The community is diverse as can be seen by the difference in feedback from experienced players all the way to the feedback of people who have just played a few hours. Experienced players tend to forget that management of a game for the broad variety of users and their different levels of experience forces compromise between their voices and concerns with those of other players; however inexperienced or uninformed they may be. If the community were more cohesive and homogeneous the need for ugly compromises would diminish.

23 hours ago, Renfur said:

 

It doesn't't clarify the standing still tackle because it is an exploit. It works similar to the old instant tackle. The mechanic is not intended to be there but it is a very useful mechanic for punishing those who want to wait until you are locked in an animation which you cannot escape, just to dfa you or use some other combo that will take you down to 60 health or lower and force you to flee and repeat the process. If a mechanic is not intended, why would a game teach you to exploit it's mechanics? That makes no sense. Hence why you have to find experienced players who know the exploit and are willing to explain it since there aren't tutorials (because we don't want it to get patched since it is a necessary mechanic). 

We would talk about it more if we knew it wouldn't get removed asap. We saw what happened with instant tackle, it was an exploit devs didn't intend to be a thing and it was removed once it gained publicity. Instead of listening to the veteran players of the PvP of this game, they justified their update with what the new, clueless players were crying about. 

 

It either is or is not an exploit, by which I mean the community and devs have to come to some understanding (or disagreement) of whether the exploit is a valid form of emergent game play or not. If people find such a mechanism to be consistent with the gaming experience, they have come to appreciate from the game, and there is broad consensus that its use is managed responsibly without abuse, then the mechanism should be accepted as a valid, standard, and thus legal move within the game mode. If not, then advocates find themselves supporting a feature that is often overpowered and abused, especially in the hands of folks that don't care what community and/or devs think concerning the issue.

23 hours ago, Renfur said:

 But wait, lets not forget that one patch where Night Hunter would lose almost all of it's velocity when turning 90 degrees quickly. When Pete introduced that patch, he only used his own feedback (They do patches based on more than 1 of the 3 topics listed, right?) on that because he believed PC Hunters should not be faster than console hunters, in return the community came back and gave them a LOT of negativity which led to the patch being reverted. 

My point is, we don't talk openly due to devs making decisions like the tendril patch. And even if they do patch something in a poor way, it would be like that for months before we get more responses from the dev team. 

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And I remember feeling "wow what a bummer for hunter movement" and being part of the critical voices.

As for quickening response when something is off: if the community spoke and interacted among itself with more consensus, then it'd be able to escalate things quicker. If the clueless types you mentioned above are not clued in, then their complaints become justifiable: how would they know? And how would the developer not be forced into a difficult and hopeless compromise?

TL:DR With bit more calm, will towards cooperation, and understanding whoever we deem to be clueless, we can remove at least some toxicity, need for secrecy, useless compromise or other measures that make the game mode less enjoyable. Give folks access to the mechanisms and histories that affect their gaming experience and ultimately let them be the judge. Clueless people can learn. Experts can become so busy defending their expertise that they forget the big picture or to have fun etc. Both sides need each other and with a bit more vigilance on staying cool with folks, things like sub-optimal patches can be addressed more effectively and with better response times. That is, if we approach things with a cooler head + without always having to call folks names or accuse them etc.

Edited by Chickeninja

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