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Hank J. Wimbleton

Should Instant Tackle be brought back?

69 posts in this topic

 

Just normal things in Harran... Didn't play my best but I was lucky enough to win against 4 guys with infinite uv's. While fighting those guys I felt like an actual slave fighting for his freedom. How about dealing with such things 1st then fixing bugs? This is one of those games that instant tackle would actually be helpful at. I guess I still have to learn from Visceral tho... Those guys all bunch of well known modders/cheaters and they walk untouched. Neo_Anderson has also insta-kill for all nests and the hunter not to mention his "Superman" abilities to fly.

PS. Sorry for uploading 1 video in two parts but my recording software does that for no reason.

Edited by LucasK

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39 minutes ago, Relentlos said:

 

Maybe some adjustments need to be made to PC considering the advantage of the keyboard/mouse over a default console controlls. One chupacabra example is the tackle spam I've seen PC hunters do. Land inside flares/between players and just run in circles completely unaware of where anyone even is while holding tackle until they automatically lock in to someone. The default PS4 controls make that very difficult but with some different mapping you can pull off the same stuff. 

They already attempted something. For a few days they made it so that if you turn too fast you lose all of your momentum and go into walk mode instead of sprint meaning you couldn't tackle. That didn't work out because every veteran hated it

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I think Pete want say "let's open streaming when you play", because it's can help you jump before Human hit you with 2 handle wp (after fail tackle), and take only 60~70% UV light when you fly around Humans. (Visceral and more Hunter use it, they can evaded 50~60% hits)
Why don't set damage itackle = 1/2 damage normal tackle? Don't delete it.

And now Hunter control so hard, because Deviation spit = Deviation tendril, spit + tackle (ground pound) was dead.

Edited by herotina

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I don't care much for exploits but as a chupacabra Hunter who uses an xbox one controller on PC with less than 150 hours, it would be nice to not get slaughtered after a missed tackle in 2v1. I started a new Hunter profile as an experiment and decided to fight only elitists such at NM+, AT+, NM-, DLG members and other great players who aren't in clans, and I'm surpremely confident that my rank will never come out of "Walker" no matter how good I become. I have attempted to play "tactical" and just wait for spit recharge and situational tackles and I can confidently say that Hunter is always fucked in groups, there is no point in tactics. There is no "situational" tackle that will do the Hunter justice in Slums or Countryside, no "situational" tackle in Old Town that is capable of avoiding a quick reaction DFA from a teammate. You need to stream some of your game play so the rest of us can watch and see how well you do as a Hunter. No invading newbies with less than 300 hours. Look at clan members, I think it would be fun to watch.

Just now, CartierC said:

I don't care much for exploits but as a chupacabra Hunter who uses an xbox one controller on PC with less than 150 hours, it would be nice to not get slaughtered after a missed tackle in 2v1. I started a new Hunter profile as an experiment and decided to fight only elitists such at NM+, AT+, NM-, DLG members and other great players who aren't in clans, and I'm surpremely confident that my rank will never come out of "Walker" no matter how good I become. I have attempted to play "tactical" and just wait for spit recharge and situational tackles and I can confidently say that Hunter is always fucked in groups, there is no point in tactics. There is no "situational" tackle that will do the Hunter justice in Slums or Countryside, no "situational" tackle in Old Town that is capable of avoiding a quick reaction DFA from a teammate. You need to stream some of your game play so the rest of us can watch and see how well you do as a Hunter. No invading newbies with less than 300 hours. Look at clan members, I think it would be fun to watch.

I see you censored the word sh*t as chupacabra but the word fucked is still there. Lmao

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1 minute ago, Keenan said:

We already challenged this lamer to a 1v4 to show us how hunter is meant to be played.

Der Großmann and I already destroyed him 2v1. I don't remember the actual score but I'm certain it wasn't close.

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Just now, CartierC said:

Der Großmann and I already destroyed him 2v1. I don't remember the actual score but I'm certain it wasn't close.

What's his in-game nickname ?

How he linked Visceral vs Spinoza was just hilarious. That match was ages ago and the game is currently completely different. Spinoza was and still is more of an offensive survivor, his defensive skills are very questionable even today.

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Digital scapes 1 and I agree about Visceral, I'm certain he'd get body bagged by a lot of survivors today.

1 minute ago, Keenan said:

What's his in-game nickname 

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20 hours ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Changes are made based on a combination of 3 things.  

  1. Feedback from our players (like all of you in this forum)
  2. Feedback from our own team
  3. Stats (we gather a multitude of stats we can break down in many ways... maps/team sizes/skill ratings/versions of the game/ etc.)

Changes are not made based on just one of the three...

 

So on your list of three things the third one caught my eye mostly. So what exactly tells you, regarding the third choice, everything about all the matches that have been played? The maps/team sizes/skill ratings/ etc. Is every single match that everyone plays across all platforms recorded without our knowing or.....what is it exactly that determines everything that happens in a match from your end? I am genuinely curious about this. Do you guys exactly know what weapons and equipment are used at any given time; how everyone was moving, and know if someone cheats? How exactly do you and your team know all this?

Edited by Hank J. Wimbleton

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To yours truly, and I align myself with similar statements/sentiments made in this thread and others, a hunter under these conditions/settings will have a really hard time handling 2 or more experienced survivors.

Why not enable more degrees of freedom for hunters at least beyond 1v1 matches, in 1v2 up to 1v4, scaling his abilities along with experience of the survivors? Experienced hunter and two beginners: fine as it is. But Experienced hunter vs 4 experienced survivors: mega abilities for hunter: GP spit, incredible speed and tendril bounce... the whole fat 9 yards.

The visceral video somehow makes the point for players skeptical concerning the current settings though: add a second spinoza and even THAT hunter, with supposed exploits and all, will be toast in most games.

My problem never was with balance nor do I obsess over skills. It's aesthetics: The main problem is this hunter is much less attractive to play. And if changes to make him more attractive to play cost too much or are impractical, let people know and decide for themselves where they stand. I guess there are new things in the pipeline and the current state of multiplayer isn't exactly high priority.

However, I don't see anybody making valid points for the current multiplayer settings right now. "Situationalism" with such an example is hard to find convincing. Everybody has to have incentive to play and it is hard to see what the current settings of the game accomplish, with folks having had the time to get used to them by now, I'm not sure the stats or team opinions should matter as much as folks/veterans playing.

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4 hours ago, CartierC said:

Der Großmann and I already destroyed him 2v1. I don't remember the actual score but I'm certain it wasn't close.

We did play (after you aborted the first game when I invaded you alone).  It was down to 1 nest and 1 life remaining... I guess that's not close? ;)

Der Großmann is a very skilled survivor.  I have played him many times.  I have no problem saying he is better at this game then I am (I have never claimed to be the best Hunter).  Even so....the game came down to me attempting a poorly timed pounce and losing because of it.  :) 

 

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8 minutes ago, Pete Donnelly said:

We did play (after you aborted the first game when I invaded you alone).  It was down to 1 nest and 1 life remaining... I guess that's not close?

 

How about we go for 1 match on each side.

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I'm sure some of you are better at the game than I am.... this doesn't prove anything (Also, I am a pretty terrible survivor player).  Winning or losing versus anyone here will not prove the game is broken/balanced.  I'm sure I will see you many of you online.  I've probably already played many of you.   Let's keep these forum discussions constructive.

 

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Then I would like to show you how broken 1v2's are I could call someone who is around my level to really get going on the stupidity of PvP in duo's. It would be just my feedback that you need to look into that part of PvP.

Edited by Keenan

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48 minutes ago, Pete Donnelly said:

I'm sure some of you are better at the game than I am.... this doesn't prove anything (Also, I am a pretty terrible survivor player).  Winning or losing versus anyone here will not prove the game is broken/balanced. 

 

How does it not prove anything? The point we're trying to get across is that team games consisting of Survivor players of equal or similar skill level to the Hunter player are too difficult for one side while too easy for the other. That is not balance. If you at least give us a hard time it would help your case of Hunter being strong enough as it is, which it is not.

All you're doing now is avoiding backing up your baseless claims. We're not saying: ''Haha, come get wrecked, noob'', which you probably read it like, we're saying: ''Let's have a match to see which of our viewpoints on the game is more valid'', since it's clear the players writing on this forum are in complete disagreement with you. Is that really so difficult or undesirable to do?

Edited by Vallon

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43 minutes ago, Vallon said:

How does it not prove anything? The point we're trying to get across is that team games consisting of Survivor players of equal or similar skill level to the Hunter player are too difficult for one side while too easy for the other. That is not balance. If you at least give us a hard time it would help your case of Hunter being strong enough as it is, which it is not.

All you're doing now is avoiding backing up your baseless claims. We're not saying: ''Haha, come get wrecked, noob'', which you probably read it like, we're saying: ''Let's have a match to see which of our viewpoints on the game is more valid'', since it's clear the players writing on this forum are in complete disagreement with you. Is that really so difficult or undesirable to do?

My claims are based on stats...compiled from 1000's of games.  Since the latest changes, the Hunter is stronger than it's ever been.  This is a fact.  I still appreciate your guys' opinions about how you feel about the game balance. Like chickeninja said (I'm paraphrasing here) it is important that a character feel fun, or attractive to play.  This requires careful balance in a PVP game though: What might make one character fun to play, could possibly make the other side frustrating and less fun to play.  Both sides need to be considered at all times.

Here are some stats for those of you that are interested. These are only since the latest tuning on PC (when iTackle was removed).  This is for top tier, evenly matched games:

1v1: Survivors win 45% 

2v1: Survivors win 56%

3v1: Survivors win 49%

4v1: Survivors win 57%

 

P.S. Survivor sense issues should be fixed now.  Reload bug needs to wait for a patch.

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It's still completely bullshit that you made the hunter way slower, he feels so clunky and stressful to control most of the times when his movements are already not very fluid and now added on with his new speed it's just a nightmare especially against good survivors it's pretty much impossible to move even for a bit near them without getting molested.

And how you say that tackles are meant for "if all else fails" situations getting close to them to do anything now is impossible without getting tackle sliced to death.

You just can't wait for your spits/uv block to recharge before each fight that's just too big of a luxury especially in 1v1's/1v2's.

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These stats are way off, you can very rarely see people fight each other who are on the same skill levels.

And how about you look into those little chupacabra who abuse the water.

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9 minutes ago, Keenan said:

And how you say that tackles are meant for "if all else fails"

No one said this.   What I did say is you have to be intelligent about where you use it.  Again, the video I posted above shows many good examples if you watch the whole thing through...

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7 minutes ago, Pete Donnelly said:

No one said this.   What I did say is you have to be intelligent about where you use it.  Again, the video I posted above shows many good examples if you watch the whole thing through...

The video is old and I already said this the hunter had way more effective tools such as gp spit and his speed which I just mentioned. No one was even close to the skill levels they currently are and Spinoza is not a very defensive player even to this day.

"Intelligent" use of tackle does not exist anymore it's either get horde on the survivor and then spam tackles to lock him on the ground or when he is climbing.

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You're literally way below most of the people in the thread and you're trying to tell us how to play the game. That's just a big no no.

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Quote

Since the latest changes, the Hunter is stronger than it's ever been.

This is a fact.

I hope you don't expect anyone to take this joke seriously. The Hunter is stronger than it has ever been, a fact? Nice one, at this point it's like you're trying to get every regular Hunter that has played since 1.11 and tell you it's the exact opposite. Literally nobody, not even Survivor players thinks the Hunter is stronger than ever.

I wish Visceral would make an account here and tell you how stupid that sentence is. From what I've heard, part of the reason why he even quit your game was because it was getting too difficult to compete with good Survivor teams. That was when GP-spit still had a near 100% spit stick rate, the Hunter didn't get screen-locked after a missed Tackle, and Survivors on average weren't as good as they are now.

You're wrong, excessively so. And it's actually very sad hearing this kind of a ridiculous statement from a developer - someone who should know the game better than any of us.

4 hours ago, Pete Donnelly said:

My claims are based on stats...compiled from 1000's of games.  Since the latest changes, the Hunter is stronger than it's ever been.  This is a fact.  I still appreciate your guys' opinions about how you feel about the game balance. Like chickeninja said (I'm paraphrasing here) it is important that a character feel fun, or attractive to play.  This requires careful balance in a PVP game though: What might make one character fun to play, could possibly make the other side frustrating and less fun to play.  Both sides need to be considered at all times.

Here are some stats for those of you that are interested. These are only since the latest tuning on PC (when iTackle was removed).  This is for top tier, evenly matched games:

1v1: Survivors win 45% 

2v1: Survivors win 56%

3v1: Survivors win 49%

4v1: Survivors win 57%

 

P.S. Survivor sense issues should be fixed now.  Reload bug needs to wait for a patch.

Right, too bad these stats are in no way reflected in the experience of the people posting on your forum - a forum which only recently became active because of changes on a two-year-old game while it was pretty much dead before. Now look at it: you're constantly getting new threads created on how the Hunter is underpowered, needs new abilities, or Survivors are exploiting this or that. But nope, those imaginary stats don't agree with players giving feedback, so too bad for us, hmm?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

It's clear we won't see eye to eye on this, and how could we? You're someone who thinks:

- DFA and DK in animations without punish is normal

- Water abuse which completely nullifies spits, something that is crucial to killing a Survivor, has a massive cooldown and are tricky to land, is normal

- Medkit abuse for constant regen, doubling the amount of hits a Survivor can take at all times is normal

- 40%-80% HP loss (at least) for 1 Tackle miss is normal

- Absolute dodge spam for maximum Tackle evasion with zero downsides to it is normal, yet...

Quote

Tackle is not something that was meant to be a "go-to" that can be spammed at all times.''

 

............ fuсking wow.

At least Wimbleton and the rest of us tried, I guess. I'm done here.

Edited by Vallon

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The stats are always a strong argument. And yeah, trying to explain that to folks interested in beating one another in the game to prove their point isn't easy. :rolleyes:

Skill has little relation to game design. One would naturally tend towards thinking that folks with high skill understand a game or competition better, due to such skills. But you could also make a plausible case that those who have or claim to have the highest skill, can be the worst at evaluating the game/competition they're in, as they face danger of excessive closeness and losing objectivity: they're so busy playing/winning, how'd they know to think outside their own bubble? With Lance Armstrong types in cycling for example: the best guy lied straight into people's faces for years and felt justified to do so because he was convinced to be "really the best".

Winning a game doesn't prove anything (what if the other guy had a string of luck? Or 10 or 100 in a row?) and stats of thousands of games, while more convincing in terms of provability, may encourage new playing styles but also run the danger of missing what makes a game attractive. Because in attraction there is some non-statistical quality, like when people enjoy stuff for reasons that are hard to understand or statistically quantify. And for that reason both stats and everybody's views matter; even if those views are based on anecdotal evidence and impressions of a few games played personally.

I think it is clear by now where most folks in this forum lean, but anybody out there who disagrees with us and finds the latest changes to be positive in nature and more appropriate regarding their own playing style: share your feedback and consider posting video/streams. Maybe you see things that the experienced folk around here don't see.

Edited by Chickeninja
Horrible spelling that scares away goons

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Vallon I don't know who you 'heard' those details from, but in no way did I quit playing DL because the competition was getting too tough. That's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I welcomed the competition of great survivor game play. All of my friends knew this and so did the people I played against on a frequent basis. Please enlighten me on who the thin wristed nerd is who told you that when you get the chance.

 

I stopped playing because the cheating and abuse of the triple crossbow load-out was just becoming stupid and obnoxious at that point. I stopped because of all the modded gear, the incessant use of infinite UV and infinite hook charges. No longer was I getting beat legitimately and the cheating was boring to me and outright awful. Skill no longer played a factor in the PVP and I was getting cheesed to the nth degree in games so it was just time to call it quits. The game lost its touch and people would no longer play for the thrill of the competition but just to squeeze out a win by any means necessary.

 

When I left (from what I remember) the insta-tackle thing was just starting to become a popular tactic. Something I tried to test myself against Assassin one time about 12-15 months ago when I accidentally did it against her because I lagged. I later tried to do it but it required me to have a seriously high mouse sensitivity and I just didn't think it was worth it so I didn't try to further test it. So seeing as how I have no real experience with it, I can't possibly have an opinion on its usefulness. Every time I played the night hunter though, it was always important to never tackle just to tackle. The smartest way to go about that to me was to always assume the tackle will fail and position yourself so you can escape if it misses. Never take it for granted and never use it unless you knew you could escape if you were to miss.

 

As far as the whole gp+spit thing, that was honestly initiated from when I started a new hunter. Just a little under 2 years ago I realized that not upgrading your ground pound was effectively stronger and made it so that spits could stick almost 99% of the time. That was obviously never intended by the devs because in a game where you can unlock all skills, when does one NOT want to unlock all skills available? It was just a slight oversight by the devs that I snagged and essentially it was nearly impossible to land a gp+spit with a fully upgraded skill tree.

 

I'd like to return and see what the competition is like now, but I can't imagine its so bad that night hunters stand no chance. I don't believe that for a second. As with any game goes in DL PVP, the best chance at victory with me (And I still believe this to this day) is highly dependent on where nests spawn for the night hunter. This is the most crucial thing in BTZ to me and makes such a hellishly important difference in the game. You've got to find ways to adapt. That's how DL BTZ has always been.

 

P.S. chickenninja you make some very good points by the way.

 

 

 

 

 

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I've probably said this before. In my opinion instant tackle added nice twist to game, no matter that I usually play on that side who receives the hit. However almost unavoidable wall tackles and 0% energy tackles were bit too much even for me.

It was really cool bug but I would bring back only tweaked version of it.
 
22 hours ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Here are some stats for those of you that are interested. These are only since the latest tuning on PC (when iTackle was removed).  This is for top tier, evenly matched games:

1v1: Survivors win 45% 

2v1: Survivors win 56%

3v1: Survivors win 49%

4v1: Survivors win 57%

 

I've seen same kind of statistics earlier too and I still feel like im being bamboozled. Its really interesting how these stats indicate quite opposite what I've heard from fellow players. Dont understand wrong, I genuinely believe stats are right and this is really overall situation right now. And btw, it would be great if you someday start publishing statistics to players, I really enjoy em.
Maybe community is just so polarized: theres normal-mode players who just want fun and nightmare-mode players who practise same combo hundreds of times to execute it in match perfectly.
Casual humans are on same line with casual hunters. But when we look at experienced players (not same as high rank!) whos gameplay has reached certain type meta level, and ask them who rules the Harran nowadays - well theres quite clear consensus who does.
 
I got one suggestion. It doesn't remove the fact that theres ways to instakill hunter alone straight after single missed tackle in 1v1/1v2 scale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAE1Mmd7hHQ&t=2m49s), but should give hunter bit more advantage after insta was fixed:
Asymmetric gamemodes are always difficult: they need to satisfy everyone - both HC-players and casual gamers on both sides,  in this case humans and hunters. So could giving to first mentioned group new sandbox - or actually just adjusting the old one - help with this issue.
Keep normal and hard difficulty modes as it. Adjust nightmare-mode settings so that players really need to push themselves to the limit and work as a team to beat hunter. How? I dont know. Dramatically slow down human health regen time?
I believe every skilled player with some self-respect would change to hc-mode - just like when people moved to Nightmare and to HUDless view etc in order to challenge themselves. This should also give newer hunters chances to fight against top tier and maybe finally even get some kills. After that, if anyone feels like hunter is too strong, they can move one difficulty level back to train their skills more.
 
And please remove autobalance. I rather lose like a man than win like loser. Works both ways; if enemy is about to lose he needs to git gud not git halp lel.
Edited by Bub

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