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Hank J. Wimbleton

Should Instant Tackle be brought back?

66 posts in this topic

So yeah as the question states should this tactic/glitch, whatever you want to call it return? I've asked some friends of mine since its removable, and playing without it for a while now; and some say it should stayed removed while others say it should be brought back. Now personally I hated this tactic. The fact its a free tackle for just missing pretty much says "I can be an idiot, and just tackle as I please since I know I'll be fine and/or get a free hit." Survivors dodged a tackle and the reward of that is getting hit by another tackle, and its even worse if spikes or high places are involved. Yes there was a way to counter this, especially with another glitch, but people should not be able to counter glitches with more glitches. Also this ability when done near walls is borderline broken as there is literally no way to avoid it at all and thus leads to unfair gameplay, and the fact that it can be done with no energy left.

Now an argument that can be made about this is the fact that it stops potential two-handed attacks and DFAs. Before this was discovered it was 90% of time in where a Survivor dodges a tackle they immediately switch totheir Two-Handed weapons for an easy finish due to the insane damage it does. Even if a Hunter were to recover quickly it still had a good chance of ending him early. DFAs are also rather to execute especially in teams where people can just wait on high places and wait for the perfect opportunity. That being said, Pete did mention that if you see people up high you focus those first instead playing to their bait strategy. Of course it is easy for players to switch roles and situations to be changed on the fly that can still lead to DFAs. Of course it all depends. However, I think we can all agree that DFAs can be done pretty much anywhere and the height in order to execute a DFA is rather short.

A solution I would bring to the table is allow for Hunters to recover much more quickly from failed Tackles, or nerf Two-Handed weapon damage. Of course an important question that we should ask is "Is this fair?"

So what do you all think:

Should Instant Tackle be brought back?


Should it stay removed forever?


Should a different solution or idea be brought to the table?

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It definetly should be brought back if not the old "input" method, Digital Scapes should make a "4th" mutation and add it as a legit skill but put 5-7seconds cooldown on it. Any dodged tackle these days (by one tackle I mean every single one due to built in delay) are guaranteed deaths if not lethal 120hp blow from a 2 hander , a dropkick or DFA which can be initiated literaly everywhere. It was perfectly fine and I don't know why it got removed. It was a glitch I get it, BUT it had many counters to it a simple space click or just getting away from hunter. Veterans knew how to deal with such "tactic" of Night Hunter. So called "Instant tackle" was complayned on only by envy "n00bs" that barely started playing the game with ~200h play time which consists 50 of Be The Zombie that just wanted to win by simple abuse of DFA's or 2 handers.

+Crossbows are literaly useless now. How about making crossbow do different dmg numbers in a asymethric way for example:

- 1v1 = 50dmg

- 2v1 = 40dmg

- 3v1 = 30dmg

- 4v1 = 25dmg

Also with the whole respect to the amazing job you've done on BtZ mode listen please, all the fixes you've done to BtZ mode introduced even more annoying bugs like that infinite reload bug, sense spit is useless in team games because survivor sense bounces off teammates, night hunter also has survivor sense if you spam Q, fire+explosives still works, elemental dmg nerf, and somehow impact bolt does 30dmg same as the impact but stun bolt deals 42dmg. GP spit removal isn't as annoying it takes actually skill to perform this move but hunter without iTackle has no way to surprise a decent survivor. How about fixing things that are actually annoying like countless survivor bugs and exploits, telebombers and bringing the PvP back to it's old shape - old shape I mean iTackle still a thing, changes to xbow linked above but without gp spit.

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We should be able to push out a fix for the SS/Howl issues tomorrow.  Reload bug will have to wait until next patch.

Crossbow does 1/4 health with a chance to do the old damage of 1/3 if you get a headshot (1v1 and 2v1).  I don't think that makes it useless :)

Tackle is not something that was meant to be a "go-to" that can be spammed at all times.  It's uses are situational.  It's supposed to be risky to throw out a tackle that a survivor is prepared for.  If you don't have full health (1v1 and 2v1) you shouldn't be attempting any questionable tackles.  

 

 

 

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I just youtubed instant tackle to see. Here I thought that stuff was lag but it seems people were abusing a glitch as well as lag, assuming it's doable on consoles. The survivor was still in the air from the evade and got tackled again. That's way too OP to be considered legit if it's unavoidable. I've faced survivors using 2 handed and they don't always get hits off. If they do I definitely don't do another tackle or I'll die. 

You can already lock them into an animation with the tackle, and deal enough damage if it's a hit. You shouldn't be able to miss it and then get a free 100% hit. They can't exactly avoid you coming at them. That's like all the people who want UV spit to take flares out too so that UV suppressor = free kill because they don't know how to play. 

edit: If anything for the two handed blows I'd say maybe make the hunter fly farther so they can't be GP's with a two handed normally unless they hit something that stops them. Either that or have them continue in a sprint after a miss but limit the tackle ability for a second or two so they don't use that to spin around while sprinting to tackle almost as fast. 

On that note I'd also say limit consecutive ground pounding to have at least some kind of delay, not on the hunter's mobility, but on his ability to charge another so fast. On normal games it's not bad because it's easy to see it coming and just dodge back, make them miss and get them. On laggy games which happen too often for me, the ground pound is far reaching and unavoidable. You dodge back 3-4 times as you see it coming and still get hit, then again, then again. Sometimes I'm also clawed from 20 feet in the air while they charge the next one. 

I know it's not just me because enough people get spammed with it that it's pretty much become a go to tactic for many. 

Edited by Relentlos

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1 hour ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Crossbow does 1/4 health with a chance to do the old damage of 1/3 if you get a headshot (1v1 and 2v1).  I don't think that makes it useless

 

See I do not agree with this. You are telling us to aim for this very tiny hit-box that ever so rarely happens unless a Hunter player stands still like a moron, or by sheer luck in order to do the old damage of 1/3. I'm sorry, but that is very unrewarding and absolutely stupid. Aiming with a projectile weapon is hard enough because you have to have to calculate the projectiles speed along with the fact that Hunter moves very, very fast, and unpredictably. Trying to even land a headshot is just near impossible because of this insane speed and how Hunter moves around especially the good ones.

Please tell me that I am wrong I would really love to be, but when does anyone actually aim for the Hunter's head anymore? The old damage allowed for so much more because you can either damage the Hunter severely or instantly killed him with a good shot in the noggin. There are times where a Hunter would get close, but even then I landed that shot and it should deal a good amount of damage.  Again it is to difficult to to hit because the hit-box is just tiny, and unless a Hunter is standing still its just near impossible. The new damage for a headshot is just insulting even if someone were to land a hit.

The current damage with just landing regular shots makes feel like it doesn't matter if I land a hit on him because then a Hunter can just ignore it and go in for whatever he likes. Of course the initial damage to do 1/4 leaves him for a Two-Hander kill, but good Hunters know how to avoid Two Handed weapons, and know when to attack. There is also the fact that some players run two Crossbows at once to to deal even greater damage, and a solution for that would be to limit the number of Crossbows in Weapon Slot to just one. The loss of the bonus elemental damage also sucks since it is what made the different bolts unique. Toxic is back, but having Impact bolts along with Fire, and Electric Arrows would be nice again otherwise what is the point of giving them elemental properties in the first place besides single-player use.

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9 hours ago, Pete Donnelly said:

 

Crossbow does 1/4 health with a chance to do the old damage of 1/3 if you get a headshot (1v1 and 2v1).  I don't think that makes it useless :)

 

This whole sentence is purely insult to the developers for making the crossbow a thing and for PvP team for balancing it not to mention players trying their best with this "The Following" addition. Crossbow deals 30dmg in all scenarios no matter what with ~36% of hunters health when shot to the head. Performing a headshot with such fast gameplay tempo as DL is known for is nearly impossible and if happens probably only due to some sort of gods will or miracle. I respect the entire Digital Scapes team but such ignorance for the players triggers me. Developers literaly have barely any clue about what's happening in day-to-day matches listening to envy, spaming noobs and their blubbering for nerfs.

So if the crossbow will never be brought back to it's old or suggested above "rewamped" shape it's literaly useless as any other ranged weapon in the game. Forcing melee playstyle is laughable.

Same goes for instant tackle if it will never be brought back as a "input method". How about adding a 2 more mutations? 4th will add instant tackle as a legit skill to night hunters disposel and 5th a lil bonus, probably to useless sense spit that is going to be useless forever even after the planned fixes regarding this spit.

I've got 1 more idea. How about bringing back old crossbow damage or atleast the one suggested above and instant tackle? I could make a video with many of my veteran friends regarding every single strat at night hunters disposel and how to counter-act those tactics as survivor and vice-versa. Hank J. Wimbleton has already a really good guide on steam showing people tactics, hunter attacts with GIF's any ways to counter them as a survivor. We could turn it into a video and developers could pin it to their social media/ youtube to prepare new preys for hunters invasions.

8 hours ago, Relentlos said:

I just youtubed instant tackle to see. Here I thought that stuff was lag but it seems people were abusing a glitch as well as lag, assuming it's doable on consoles. The survivor was still in the air from the evade and got tackled again. That's way too OP to be considered legit if it's unavoidable. I've faced survivors using 2 handed and they don't always get hits off. If they do I definitely don't do another tackle or I'll die. 

You can already lock them into an animation with the tackle, and deal enough damage if it's a hit. You shouldn't be able to miss it and then get a free 100% hit. They can't exactly avoid you coming at them. That's like all the people who want UV spit to take flares out too so that UV suppressor = free kill because they don't know how to play. 

edit: If anything for the two handed blows I'd say maybe make the hunter fly farther so they can't be GP's with a two handed normally unless they hit something that stops them. Either that or have them continue in a sprint after a miss but limit the tackle ability for a second or two so they don't use that to spin around while sprinting to tackle almost as fast. 

On that note I'd also say limit consecutive ground pounding to have at least some kind of delay, not on the hunter's mobility, but on his ability to charge another so fast. On normal games it's not bad because it's easy to see it coming and just dodge back, make them miss and get them. On laggy games which happen too often for me, the ground pound is far reaching and unavoidable. You dodge back 3-4 times as you see it coming and still get hit, then again, then again. Sometimes I'm also clawed from 20 feet in the air while they charge the next one. 

I know it's not just me because enough people get spammed with it that it's pretty much become a go to tactic for many. 

I don't agree with you instant tackles were not spammed as frequently as you think. Built-in delay prevents the excesive abuse that you're talking about. Instant tackle was perfectly fine and known to veterans so they didn't complain about them. I bet you're one of those "guys" that abused dropkics 2 handers and dfa's after missed tackles to lead their sorry chupacabra to victory. Instant tackle had so many ways to counter like dodging after it grapple-cancel dodge and so on, but of course people just don't want to be creative and use their brain's grey cells to perform such action so they just simply cry for nerfs and fixes.

+Laggy games on consoles happen way more often than on PC. On PC it's caused only by player -> player distance latency and their connection quality. On consoles on the other hand all that latency is caused not only by that but also by Sony/Microsoft cheap servers and their response times not to mention barely stable 30fps which led to situations on PC like 10 seconds exploding spit on 12FPS.

+Nerf ground-pound, this, that yatta yatta yatta. If every-single one of you guys will complain like this Techland and Scapes will literaly change everything into existance and both sides will feel like a soap on water. Barely able to control it's pathing and remain control over itself.

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15 hours ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Crossbow does 1/4 health with a chance to do the old damage of 1/3 if you get a headshot (1v1 and 2v1).  I don't think that makes it useless :)

Tackle is not something that was meant to be a "go-to" that can be spammed at all times.  It's uses are situational.  It's supposed to be risky to throw out a tackle that a survivor is prepared for.  If you don't have full health (1v1 and 2v1) you shouldn't be attempting any questionable tackles.  

 

 

 

Clueless...

Can you stream/record yourself playing Hunter against an experienced team, say the people who reply in this thread? Nathan, Wimbleton and myself should do. I would really love to see how the Hunter is meant to be played since you clearly have a completely different perspective on the game, one that I believe is objectively wrong and destroying whatever small amount of balance this game had prior to all of your changes.

You beating us would mean your view of how the game should play out is, at the very least, fair for both sides, so how about backing up all of those hollow advices and one-liner counters you give to experienced players that write paragraphs and give actual gameplay examples? Should be fun either way.

Edited by Vallon

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16 hours ago, Pete Donnelly said:

 

Tackle is not something that was meant to be a "go-to" that can be spammed at all times.  It's uses are situational.  It's supposed to be risky to throw out a tackle that a survivor is prepared for.  If you don't have full health (1v1 and 2v1) you shouldn't be attempting any questionable tackles.  

 

 

 

It's like you don't even play the game yourself, or atleast against above average survivors. It doesn't matter how much hp you have in a 2v1 if you miss a tackle you're done.

Same goes for team games miss a tackle and everyone just comes in with their 2 handeds and there's nothing at all that you could do and it's already a cr*p show in team games due to most above average players are just complete DFA crows. Saying that you should focus on the survivors who are lower is just a joke. You can swap roles extremely fast between the crow and the bait. You don't even need to switch roles if you are good enough you can just hook up and DFA the hunter yourself. A simple DK can set up a DFA for your teammates aswell. If going for a tackle is not a good idea, then going for a ground pound is even worse since it can be easily dodged if the survivor is not hit with the claw, hooking up when you see the hunter coming in for you is easy aswell and you wont get punished for that if the hunter see's you doing that since your buddies are there to save you if he decides to punish you with a tackle.

Edited by Keenan

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Here's some ref for you guys that have asked.  It show's a lot of intelligent uses of the tackle skill (without the need to spam itackle).  He doesn't just throw it out there without thinking... as a result, he ends up with a very high success rate.  

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Here's some ref for you guys that have asked.  It show's a lot of intelligent uses of the tackle skill (without the need to spam itackle).  He doesn't just throw it out there without thinking... as a result, he ends up with a very high success rate.  

 

 

1. This video is almost a year old

2. No need of iTackle because of gp-spit.

3. Currently survivors aren't as dumb as they used to be.

PS. Visceral is not a god so stop bringing up his games + he doesn't even play PvP anymore same goes for spinoza that plays without HUD.

 

 

Edited by LucasK

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49 minutes ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Here's some ref for you guys that have asked.  It show's a lot of intelligent uses of the tackle skill (without the need to spam itackle).  He doesn't just throw it out there without thinking... as a result, he ends up with a very high success rate.  

 

 

Lmao, are you joking? 

- This is a video from more than half a year ago, skill curve wasn't as high as it is now

- This was at a time you did not stupidly lock the Hunter's screen after a missed Tackle

- This was at a time GP-spit was a thing. Visceral himself admitted in a comment that without that exploit he would not be able to beat spinoza. Higher spit stick ratio = higher player confusion = more mistakes made = Tackle is a more viable option since the Survivor may decide to back off rather than attack.

- This is a goddamn 1v1 match, not a team game, which are infinitely more difficult.

Did you go on YouTube and type: ''Very good Hunter vs Very good Survivor'' or something like that? 

Edited by Vallon

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Removing all hunter tricks is not a smart decision. It does not only help those lacking skill win their beloved team games but also drastically lowers skill bar in the game.

Edited by Chaos_Deception
offensive word removed

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I'm going to start off by saying that this footage is old. Yes it shows how Visceral attacks and such, but there so many things that I'll just point out right now.

-Gp-Spit is still a thing in this video.

-There were many questionable actions and mistakes that the Survivor has done in this video that I'm pretty damn sure are corrected ever since then.

-This is just one scenario compared to the other situations such as fighting a team of four in the Countryside or a team of two in Slums against good players.

-Lastly, and I'll say it again, this footage is old. It does not compare to how things are as of today. If you want any of us to record footage by all means I'll do it, and do it in many fighting situations.

I would also like to point out that the Survivor also missed alot of shots with the crossbow. He got one kill out of many missed shots. Again the footage is old, but even today, me and a good few of my friends have good aim and miss alot, and when we do land shots we are rewarded with low damage.

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21 hours ago, LucasK said:

It definetly should be brought back if not the old "input" method, Digital Scapes should make a "4th" mutation and add it as a legit skill but put 5-7seconds cooldown on it. Any dodged tackle these days (by one tackle I mean every single one due to built in delay) are guaranteed deaths if not lethal 120hp blow from a 2 hander , a dropkick or DFA which can be initiated literaly everywhere. It was perfectly fine and I don't know why it got removed. It was a glitch I get it, BUT it had many counters to it a simple space click or just getting away from hunter. Veterans knew how to deal with such "tactic" of Night Hunter. So called "Instant tackle" was complayned on only by envy "n00bs" that barely started playing the game with ~200h play time which consists 50 of Be The Zombie that just wanted to win by simple abuse of DFA's or 2 handers.

+Crossbows are literaly useless now. How about making crossbow do different dmg numbers in a asymethric way for example:

- 1v1 = 50dmg

- 2v1 = 40dmg

- 3v1 = 30dmg

- 4v1 = 25dmg

Also with the whole respect to the amazing job you've done on BtZ mode listen please, all the fixes you've done to BtZ mode introduced even more annoying bugs like that infinite reload bug, sense spit is useless in team games because survivor sense bounces off teammates, night hunter also has survivor sense if you spam Q, fire+explosives still works, elemental dmg nerf, and somehow impact bolt does 30dmg same as the impact but stun bolt deals 42dmg. GP spit removal isn't as annoying it takes actually skill to perform this move but hunter without iTackle has no way to surprise a decent survivor. How about fixing things that are actually annoying like countless survivor bugs and exploits, telebombers and bringing the PvP back to it's old shape - old shape I mean iTackle still a thing, changes to xbow linked above but without gp spit.

Instant tackle wasn't a huge a problem in team games IMO, however in 1v1, instant tackle can be extremely difficult to deal with. I'm talking about the i-tackles where the hunter lands against the wall and manages to launch another one really quickly while still in the air making it near unavoidable. I agree with you on the cool down part. Perhaps a larger cool down penalty in 1v1 and a smaller one in 3v1 and 4v1 would sound like a good idea.

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Footage may be old be this was specifically in response to tackle questions.  You want to know how tackle should be used?  Watch the video.  All of the "tackle tactics" he used are still 100% valid .  

And yes, this video also shows why GP-Spit was adjusted.  It can still be done with skill...but it is not a guarantee after a GP.

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1 minute ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Footage may be old be this was specifically in response to tackle questions.  You want to know how tackle should be used?  Watch the video.  All of the "tackle tactics" he used are still 100% valid .  

And yes, this video also shows why GP-Spit was adjusted.  It can still be done with skill...but it is not a guarantee after a GP.

Hmm I feel insulted. It's like telling other veterans to play exactly like Visceral altough they can perform even better tackles and react faster than he does.

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I give up. This is hopeless. I'm not talking to a fellow player - I'm talking to a developer.

Make sure to reduce GP range or something next patch, Pete. Later.

Edited by Vallon

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iTackle takes 0 skill and was an exploit.  It is not coming back.  Visceral is used here as an example. This video has many skilled uses of the tackle.  He understood the game well and people can learn a lot from him if they choose to (minus the GP spit-stick) ;)  

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Just now, Vallon said:

Alright Nate, guess we'll have to put in 1k more hours to reach Visceral's level. Donnelly has a point, maybe we just... suck?

Yeah, 2k hours into the game is not enough to be a decent player to fight DFA's and 2 Handers.

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I guess days when developers actually listened to feedback from veterans and not clueless retards are not coming anytime soon aswell.

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Changes are made based on a combination of 3 things.  

  1. Feedback from our players (like all of you in this forum)
  2. Feedback from our own team
  3. Stats (we gather a multitude of stats we can break down in many ways... maps/team sizes/skill ratings/versions of the game/ etc.)

Changes are not made based on just one of the three...

 

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So how about that match, Donnelly? In one of your posts you said you had more hours than most of us, so that should at least make you able to somewhat compete with good players, or players with similar playtime, correct?

Come, let's see that correct usage of Tackle in action, by the person who is the only one that argues for it. Just for fun and feedback.

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Then how about this Pete. Me, Vallon, Hank and LucasK have a 1v4 against you and you can show us how the hunter is meant to be played.

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9 hours ago, LucasK said:

 

I don't agree with you instant tackles were not spammed as frequently as you think. Built-in delay prevents the excesive abuse that you're talking about. Instant tackle was perfectly fine and known to veterans so they didn't complain about them. I bet you're one of those "guys" that abused dropkics 2 handers and dfa's after missed tackles to lead their sorry chupacabra to victory. Instant tackle had so many ways to counter like dodging after it grapple-cancel dodge and so on, but of course people just don't want to be creative and use their brain's grey cells to perform such action so they just simply cry for nerfs and fixes.

Relax. I'm just going off a video I saw and some other comments. In the video the hunter tackled, was able to spin around instantly and perform an instant reverse tackle while the survivor was still in the air from the evade, unable to evade apparently. I don't see how a grapple hook would help him evade unless he had enough time to pull it out and move out of the lock in range. If there are legit counters then it's not as huge of a deal. If there are exploits that allow a mid air evade then what's the point? You're using exploits to counter exploits. Doesn't that make it ridiculous at that point?

 I'm on ps4 so every time I see odd things like instant tackles I figured it was lag considering the hunter is warping around like a blur with nearly infinite stamina and initiating tackles from so damn far that my hunter would sometimes have trouble pouncing from there. 

Maybe some adjustments need to be made to PC considering the advantage of the keyboard/mouse over a default console controlls. One chupacabra example is the tackle spam I've seen PC hunters do. Land inside flares/between players and just run in circles completely unaware of where anyone even is while holding tackle until they automatically lock in to someone. The default PS4 controls make that very difficult but with some different mapping you can pull off the same stuff. 

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