Vallon

The worst patch to have ever hit Dying Light

25 posts in this topic

One step forward, two steps back. Is this what you were aiming for? 

Let me just get straight to the point: the issue of this patch is not the removal of GP-Spit, it's not the removal of instant Tackle (which isn't actually removed), it isn't the lie that DFA in water is no longer possible. It's..:

''- Fixed the charge attack exploit of spinning on the spot while sprinting''

Excuse me? Tackling while running in circles an exploit now? Since when? Apparently the ''fix'' for this is to completely disable the option to Tackle when you turn to a side too sharply, and ''too sharply'' literally means a small, 30-degree curve, the ones we've been using for ages to fake out a Survivor. What the patch also omits to mention is that the Hunter's velocity is now completely removed and he comes to a near halt the sharper the turn he takes. A 180-degree turn nulls his movement entirely. That is... beyond dumb. I'm trying to find words to describe how bad this set of changes feels, so I'll try to sum it up.

With this patch, you removed one of the Hunter's strongest points - his incredible agility, maneuverability and elusiveness. The Hunter now feels incredibly sluggish, and paired with the literal fuсking inability to Tackle a Survivor if you move your mouse more than 30 degrees to the side is the epitome of stupidity. Like the fact that a Survivor can smash the hell out of Space bar for maximum Tackle immunity wasn't enough, now if Hunters want to Tackle from the side (Tackles from the back are impossible) they'd need to wait so the game accepts you're sprinting forward and lets you Tackle, which gives Survivors all the time in the world to react and turn, making it a sure evade. Couple that nerf in speed and lessened difficulty for Survivors to keep their UV light on the Hunter and you've got a pathetic zombie that cannot remain in combat for longer than 2-3 seconds before running out of energy.

Now here's the funny part. I asked around what the inspiration for this idiotic change was, and get this: apparently it's because ''PC Hunter players should not be faster than console ones''. Huh? Obviously this is something I've been told and don't hold it as a fact, but it's strangely believable.

So, Digital Scapes, if you want to completely kill one of the two sides of your PvP design why take such a roundabout approach? How on earth has the fact that Survivors are easily the superior side escaped you throughout two years of patches and fixes? Nerfing Tackle and Tendril speed after all this time seems absurd to me.

I realize this may just be some sort of temporary change for you to just see how it works in practice and get some feedback, so hopefully that's the case and this is not permanent.

Edited by Vallon

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"too sharply" actually means more than 90 degrees in 1/3 of a second ;)

We are looking at tweaking a couple things tomorrow.  Toxic damage might get scaled back a little and we may loosen this restriction a bit (might return a bit of bow damage too).   The primary this is meant to prevent are Hunters blindly spinning in circles, hoping for a tackle.  It's not the kind of gameplay we want to encourage.

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I don't know what to think after this update. No seriously. Was the point of these recent updates to make PVP as barebones and slow as possible? If so then congrats you accomplished just that.

The Ground Pound Spit combo and Insant Tackle still work by the way. So literally no success or changes there, but instead we had a big nerf to hunter I cannont understand.

(Fixed the charge attack exploit of spinning on the spot while sprinting)

By doing this you literally removed Night Hunter's speed and unpredictability which was essential.

Vallon literally said everything I would have said and I agree completely, but also that these updates are just nerfing everything hard.

Survivors have a utility of equipment items that are now basically useless. You can barely use a majority of Survivors equipment at all. Grenades and throwing stars of all types, Molotovs, and even the shields are completely useless. Survivors have so many items at their disposable and it is very disappointing that many of them are considered downright useless, and the ones that aren't the solution is to nullify them fully.

Elemental damage doesn't even exist anymore as Hunters and Nests can take all damage of it and doesn't anything.

Even Potions were heavily nerfed. Yes it had a longer duration, but the cooldown is just horrible and that fact that all potions share the cooldown as well.

On the Hunter's side, exploits that were the main focus are still here, but much worse is that his speed, manuverability, and unpredictability are heavily nerfed.

Just please put everything back before these two updates were made, and just focus on only the exploits.

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To remove the ability to tackle while spinning around the survivor well it just breaks the game. If you want DL be the zombie to die out well then congrats you have done it. Vallon and Hank are totally correct about their observations, to remove the maneuverability of the hunter is the worst thing you could ever have done. There will be plenty of survivors playing but not any hunters (that are above runner that is). I hope as Vallon so elegantly put it :
" I realize this may just be some sort of temporary change for you to just see how it works in practice and get some feedback, so hopefully that's the case and this is not permanent."

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hahaha. I am so glad I dropped the game some time ago. When i read these posts i feel very sorry for all those addicted players who are cursing techland for what they have done with this game. Instead of fixing couple of problems Pete Donelly created more :).  Advice from me Pete. If you want to tune this game wisely you need to play regularily for a couple of months, you need to gain a LOT of experience with top-notch players, human and hunter both. See for yourself what is the real problem and then do a patch, otherwise if you are just casual player or you are playing from time to time for a couple of minutes, dont even try to make changes, You will only make it worse. Vallon explained everything very clear, he is devoted to game, he knows sth about game balance and can create coherent sentences, sth. that 1% of the Dying Light players are capable of. Some people are giving you good advices but i think you do have some kind of superiority complex and you dont want to do things "our" way and try to circumvent problems in "your" ways. Just my opinion.

Another thing worth mentioning !!!

On 9.06.2017 at 7:56 PM, Vallon said:

when you have 2-3 crows standing up high and waiting for you to engage the Survivor on the ground so they can instantly kill you

In this specific situation you mention, it's up to the Hunter to recognize what's happening and attack the "crows" instead of the "bait" ;) 

I'm not convinced DFA needs further tuning right now.  It's been nerfed a couple times already.  Humans can't pull you out of a successful animation...they can time it perfectly and grab you as soon as it ends though.

It seems so smart and convincing for readers, but if you are playing with 4 players, jumping and grappling hook allows "bait" and "crows" to switch roles in a matter of seconds. You should play to understand this problem better. If you want to switch focus from "bait to crows" you can expect a couple of bolts in your face and people waiting with charged attacks spamming dodge all the time so good luck haha. Putting toxic on the poles and roofs or clawing is good but you have only 2 toxic spits, You could increase the recharge ratio for toxic separately so hunter can turf out humans from DFA positions. By nerfing crossbow you have made the 1v1 mode too hard for human while making 4v1 more balanced.

I lost my hope when Pete said he can't tune things like flare cooldown separately for 1v1 and 2,3,4v1. Balancing an assymetric pvp game is complicated as calibrating good old CRT displays, Changing one factor may seemingly fix one problem, but in wrong hands it will create other problems somewhere lese. In order to create good pvp experience, devs have to know all glitches, exploits, how to use them in a PVP,, have some common sense about balance and gain a lot of experience in PVP.

Edited by EMtriX

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Vallon explained it very well (now I think we just need as many players as possible to come comment here, so guys, share the website around, most players don't use it), not gonna repeat what he said, plus his vocabulary is definitely better than mine. I currently have a wrist problem so typing long texts isn't what I should be doing. Just remember I am, like everyone, very upset about this update, and believe that this is the worst thing you could ever have done. Dying Light was an extremely fast paced game and you just turned it into a Minecraft - Night Version. Here's my one advice to you Techland: delete this patch, let us play like we did before, and take your time to make a better patch for GP spit and Insta Tackles (or don't, doesn't matter to me. They are noob moves but make it even more challenging sometimes). Because leave it the way you made it now and I can guarantee you that in 2 months the few players that were left in the game are gone.

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"The primary this is meant to prevent are Hunters blindly spinning in circles, hoping for a tackle.  It's not the kind of gameplay we want to encourage." -Pete Donnelly.

This is one thing I do want to point this out. Hunters that blindly spin in circles do not get their tackles. That's why you notice them. The ones that have good aim and actually aim at u do get them. No need to cruch the whole game physics to fix that...No need to fix that at all. No one cares. Seriously what were you thinking.

Apparently this seems logical to you but if you don't remove this patch by logic then you will do it by everyone leaving the game after a couple of months, as I already said.

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3 hours ago, EMtriX said:

hahaha. I am so glad I dropped the game some time ago. When i read these posts i feel very sorry for all those addicted players who are cursing techland for what they have done with this game. Instead of fixing couple of problems Pete Donelly created more :).  Advice from me Pete. If you want to tune this game wisely you need to play regularily for a couple of months, you need to gain a LOT of experience with top-notch players, human and hunter both. See for yourself what is the real problem and then do a patch, otherwise if you are just casual player or you are playing from time to time for a couple of minutes, dont even try to make changes, You will only make it worse. Vallon explained everything very clear, he is devoted to game, he knows sth about game balance and can create coherent sentences, sth. that 1% of the Dying Light players are capable of. Some people are giving you good advices but i think you do have some kind of superiority complex and you dont want to do things "our" way and try to circumvent problems in "your" ways. Just my opinion.

Another thing worth mentioning !!!

In this specific situation you mention, it's up to the Hunter to recognize what's happening and attack the "crows" instead of the "bait" ;) 

I'm not convinced DFA needs further tuning right now.  It's been nerfed a couple times already.  Humans can't pull you out of a successful animation...they can time it perfectly and grab you as soon as it ends though.

It seems so smart and convincing for readers, but if you are playing with 4 players, jumping and grappling hook allows "bait" and "crows" to switch roles in a matter of seconds. You should play to understand this problem better. If you want to switch focus from "bait to hunter" you can expect a couple of bolts in your face and people waiting with charged attacks spamming dodge all the time so good luck haha. Putting toxic on the poles and roofs or clawing is good but you have only 2 toxic spits, You could increase the recharge ratio for toxic separately so hunter can turf out humans from DFA positions. By nerfing crossbow you have made the 1v1 mode too hard for human while making 4v1 more balanced.

I lost my hope when Pete said he can't tune things like flare cooldown separately for 1v1 and 2,3,4v1. Balancing an assymetric pvp game is complicated as calibrating good old CRT displays, Changing one factor may seemingly fix one problem, but in wrong hands it will create other problems somewhere lese. In order to create good pvp experience, devs have to know all glitches, exploits, how to use them in a PVP,, have some common sense about balance and gain a lot of experience in PVP.

 

I should have stopped reading after first sentences.

As far as I know Digital Scapes is behind this patch, so I believe you are barking up the wrong tree. And anyway barking to any tree, right or not, isn't something I would call to constructive discussion. Last tuning by P was in place and it had good changes.

 

Back to the topic:

I agree with Vallon; after this patch hunter is awfully clumsy and it has changed gamemodes whole nature to direction I dont like.

What I like in BtZ? Extreme verticality, super fast situations - attacks and counter attacks - guided only by muscle memory and intuition. Every skilled player knows when they cant even see hunter but they still dodge tackles and spits like hattori hanzo - because they just unnaturally sense where attacks are coming from. That kind of situations are partly reason why I find BtZ best gamemode ever made.

Hunter needs its superior speed and maneuverability. Now matches feel like dancing with 60 inch iron beam.

Edited by Bub

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A rather surprising change. As for 90 degrees in less than one third of a second being dismissed as a minuscule change: that's something for everybody's playing style and personal preference to decide, as one could equivalently argue that moves at that speed are the point of why some folks choose PC. Somehow reigning in Gp spit combo to this extent WHILE weakening the tackle seems heavy handed, especially given 3v1, 4v1 scenarios, as well as when hunters mutate. In such situations, hunters could use an extra hand.

Multiple survivors were difficult to handle b4 the changes, but now seems like asking for some unbelievable amount of luck. Don't understand why running in circles should prevent one from dealing damage but can understand where people are coming from when claiming that the game overall feels more sluggish, dry, while tactics become more predictable.

But I'm generally open to new ways to play, and if there is some new mechanic that hunters can pull that not only balances things out, but is as appetizing and fun as the older setup... as Pete does suggest that there exists a kind of game play they want to encourage, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for and see footage of such game play. 

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update:

After looking into this some more, we've noticed what is out there wasn't actually using the proper values for the sprint turning.  We have a new tuner coming out soon that will remove this change until we can test things further.  I'll let you know what it includes once it goes live.

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Alright everyone should get these changes next time they boot up DL:

Damage values assuming 1v1, 2v1

  1. Bow damage returned to 3 hits (they got lumped in with the crossbow previously)
  2. Crossbow damage 4 hits 
  3. Hunter "sprint turning" change removed
  4. Disabled DFA when Hunter is swimming (note: Hunter can still get grabbed when using tendrils in water)
  5. Toxic spit damage lowered (still higher than pre-patch)
  6. Smoke grenade no longer works as a flare
  7. Buggy Flamethrower damage increased vs Hunter

There was indeed an issue with the "insta-tackle" fix.  It should be resolved in the next patch.

Also, changes are made based on the combination of these 3 things (they don't always line up):

  1. Stats we collect on all aspects of BTZ (including win/loss rates across specific skill levels and all variations of the game, 1v1, 4v1 etc.)
  2. Community feedback
  3. Our own personal experiences 

And just an FYI (if it makes some of you feel better) I personally have 1000s of hours BTZ experience across consoles and PC... along with helping to design the game from the start of production.   And I still play it... I haven't stopped... ;)

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45 minutes ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Alright everyone should get these changes next time they boot up DL:

Damage values assuming 1v1, 2v1

  1. Bow damage returned to 3 hits (they got lumped in with the crossbow previously)
  2. Crossbow damage 4 hits 
  3. Hunter "sprint turning" change removed
  4. Disabled DFA when Hunter is swimming (note: Hunter can still get grabbed when using tendrils in water)
  5. Toxic spit damage lowered (still higher than pre-patch)
  6. Smoke grenade no longer works as a flare
  7. Buggy Flamethrower damage increased vs Hunter

There was indeed an issue with the "insta-tackle" fix.  It should be resolved in the next patch.

Also, changes are made based on the combination of these 3 things (they don't always line up):

  1. Stats we collect on all aspects of BTZ (including win/loss rates across specific skill levels and all variations of the game, 1v1, 4v1 etc.)
  2. Community feedback
  3. Our own personal experiences 

And just an FYI (if it makes some of you feel better) I personally have 1000s of hours BTZ experience across consoles and PC... along with helping to design the game from the start of production.   And I still play it... I haven't stopped... ;)

This is nice! I still play a lot too, hopefully this will work out better. Recently after testing with friends we found out that insta tackle still worked at some close distances (hunter's failed tackle got shortened by a wall or object and human was close)

Also DFA's still worked when the hunter was just floating at the surface of water and even underwater? Hopefully that is fixed too now.

Also, can you perhaps explain to me why the elemental damage is basically nullified? 

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10 minutes ago, tvdaXD said:

Also, can you perhaps explain to me why the elemental damage is basically nullified? 

There was an issue with elemental compounding and doing too much damage in some situations...I was unable to tune these cases appropriately.  I did bring back poison though.  It should work on nests and the hunter.   Oh...and thrown weapons.  Those were nullified by accident and brought back as well :) (got lumped in with the elemental previously)

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1 minute ago, Pete Donnelly said:

There was an issue with elemental compounding and doing too much damage in some situations...I was unable to tune these cases appropriately.  I did bring back poison though.  It should work on nests and the hunter.   Oh...and thrown weapons.  Those were nullified by accident and brought back as well :) (got lumped in with the elemental previously)

That's great! Also there's one thing I noticed while playing as hunter; Hunters have survivor sense too now. I use the default controls so when I press Q I pounce, but it now also triggers survivor sense. Which is also bind to Q if I was playing survivor.

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@Pete Donnelly I don't know why you even bother changing this dead game anymore instead of working on DL2 but...apparently you have a massive idea in your mind so...I'm fingers crossed for the best, hopefully this becomes the fastest paced game ever again.

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@Pete Donnelly,

I only play as the hunter so I have no experience of the human side of the patch (except for not dying as often now from crossbows), the people above are far more experienced talking about that.

I understand that you are trying to fulfil everyone's wishes from beginner to pro which in itself is an impossible task. I am, by any standards, still a beginner (only 150 hours) compared to the likes of you and the people above. But playing now, well, it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Even if you tweak some of the changes you have made, it will still be the same scenario. However, (please take this as constructive criticism as that is what it is intended to be) if you feel it's fair please go head to head, or even better, go against four pros and see how you fare. Hopefully that will open your eyes to the necessity of having an extremely agile and fast hunter.

 

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Played about 3hours today. Alterning human and Z. It's perfect as it is, don't change anyting else lol. So happy to find the game intact again this afternoon ^-^

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On 14.06.2017 at 2:05 AM, Pete Donnelly said:

"too sharply" actually means more than 90 degrees in 1/3 of a second ;)

We are looking at tweaking a couple things tomorrow.  Toxic damage might get scaled back a little and we may loosen this restriction a bit (might return a bit of bow damage too).   The primary this is meant to prevent are Hunters blindly spinning in circles, hoping for a tackle.  It's not the kind of gameplay we want to encourage.

I don't wan't to break some delusions here, but circling in spot wasn't going to initiate tackle from itself right? It's used to discourage humans to jump for dfa and he can see that i'm circling so isn't it all about if human decides to fall in trap? It's like you're always telling that hunters should be aware of the people above where people are asking for something to counter DFA and this is what actually counters it in some situation or more like prevent it by making human to think, but it's not like you will circling in one spot blocking a human from advancing isn't it? He can always go other way. Circling in spot isn't safe as well, you are open to crossbow and arrow attacks as well for flashlights and flares from other players.

 

Tell me where did you hear about circling in spot as abuse, there was always resent about GP+spit and instant tackles, but who told you about this? It's really the first time i heard that someone complain about.

 

I think that circling hunters is a good topic for a Monty Python episode.

Edited by sanjyuubi
typos

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On 6/14/2017 at 6:19 PM, Pete Donnelly said:

There was an issue with elemental compounding and doing too much damage in some situations...I was unable to tune these cases appropriately.  I did bring back poison though.  It should work on nests and the hunter.   Oh...and thrown weapons.  Those were nullified by accident and brought back as well :) (got lumped in with the elemental previously)

What do you exactly mean by this? I mean in a team scenario with four humans having different elements on their modified gear, wouldn't it make sense for it to all stack when attacking nests or zombies, even if one human was combining elements? Or was there something that completely broke things?

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If you disconnect your internet and load your game up you bypass the update.

Crossbow DMG and every other change returns to the prepatch state.

 

Also when is the patch getting ported to PS4?

 

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