Pete Donnelly

***BTZ tuning 06/08/2017***

32 posts in this topic

 

Sorry but you should watch this video to see for yourself some of the "tactics" humans use (and this is supposed to be "ninja skills"), shoot and switch to 2 handed then kill the NH, or evade tackle and kill him... There are a few of these that i can admit were skilled, but not many...

NH MUST be skilled in order to win, humans can just play (notice that the humans receive hints all the time on what to do)

16 hours ago, Pete Donnelly said:

Survivors don't have anything similar

This is not true. The whole game teaches you on what to do, flares and UV FL that's just it. "But humans have to learn the gimmicks", Hunters have to even more. I don't know where are you getting these numbers from because reality presents itself very differently (oh, and the full green bar thing? Sorry, a human just went full turtle on flares, there is little to do there).

I have either to depend on luck or a bad/noob player to win, there is no fairness the way things are, the mechanics are frustrating in it self, all my movesets can be evaded effectively by humans, but the contrary doesn't work.

I don't think anybody deserves a nerf or buff, simply change how mechanics work, it is pathetic and humiliating to a hunter to be one shotted. Curiously I can't DFA volitiles when human but "the ultimate zombie" i can and they are paper thin. 

Again, hunters shouldn't have to run from humans instead they shouldn't be able to get near them.

For instance, what you could do to balance this in a way humans won't be able to kill you so easy.

Humans

  • Remove DFA from humans
  • Flares have less CD (they can throw as much as they want but the time to throw the flare is longer and they have a 4 sec CD between flares)
  • Flares are limited but have a much larger area of effect (Only zaid flares works on NH and you give humans for free on the start and each time they die, this prevents spamming too much)
  • UV Flashlights no longer makes NH vulnerable, instead they drain until it reaches 0 but doesn't go vulnerable (only the flares do that because they emit stronger lights)
  • UV flashlights don't consume as much "stamina" from the start anymore but instead it gradually consumes more NH stamina as long as it keeps him under the light
  • Humans won't/can't move as much when being pounced (preventing 180° pounce block, i can agree with 90° though)
  • DK doesn't do damage to NH anymore
  • Grapple hooks doesn't do damage anymore, instead they stagger the NH.
  • Humans respawn almost instanly when after dying

Night Hunters

  • Once you go vulnerable, you just F'd up, you can't do anything, only jump slightly, the rest continues as it is
  • You have only one UV block and the CD is huge (3-4 mins, doesn't reset after death, it serves as a mean to reduce the F up punishent giving you another try) and it only permits you to use tentacles, nothing else, the amount of CD and UV block stacks scales with the number of players and its duration as well
  • Reduce the distance you can pounce
  • Make sounds NH make less audible (I can hear them from a Fn mile)
  • Much more HP and resilient to all kinds of dmg (headshots can one shot only if it is from a bow or crossbow, all other weapons need 3-4 shots)
  • Spits CDs are much shorter but it's area is shorter (when a hunter succeed in killing a human that is not affected by any spit effect, you shorten a bit of the CDs)
  • Tackles are not animations anymore but can be aimed properly and doesn't need to be running to do them (they can't be dodged anymore if hit, you can dodge like normaly but not with animation or prevent the NH tackle by dropkicking him before he starts his motion as it takes just a ittle to do the tackle) but the damage it does is reduced, on top of all that, if you miss your tackle you stagger, so if you try to tackle carelessly on a human that is on top of a flare, you should aim well or think twice because you will be vulnerable after a miss (your F up).
  • GP doesn't erase the flare completely anymore, it just blows it away to another place (he will still be affected from the flares effect a bit)
  • GP doesn't have the stagger anymore but it just works for humans in your area of view (about 150°, so no GP on the back anymore)
  • GP spit makes the spit type you used be blocked for a certain amount of time (area of effect shortened because of GP area too)
  • You have only one spit timer to all spits and 3 stacks (if you empty all stacks the CD is longer for the first spit, you have to manage the spits well)
  • The nests are a bit more fragile to melee but are resilient to ranged dmg (that counts explosions from granades and whatnot but if its explosions or damage from the scenarios like gas bottle or gasoline barril or even the bricks you find here and there, it is powerful).

I think I covered most of the scenarios that are just plain stupid and/or frustrating, the point of these would be to prevent the possibility of a "survivor" instead of "trying to survive", begins to hunt the hunter. As it is today the catch frase should be "good night, good hunt".

Doesn't mean that I am right, just means that I am not satisfied with how the mechanics work especially on the NH side yet.

I know it would take a little more than a patch to do these kind of changes but i would be glad to pay some money to this promising game. You guys are on the right track, needs a little more polishing i would guess.

Edited by lithior

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2 hours ago, lithior said:

 

Sorry but you should watch this video to see for yourself some of the "tactics" humans use (and this is supposed to be "ninja skills"), shoot and switch to 2 handed then kill the NH, or evade tackle and kill him... There are a few of these that i can admit were skilled, but not many...

NH MUST be skilled in order to win, humans can just play (notice that the humans receive hints all the time on what to do)

This is not true. The whole game teaches you on what to do, flares and UV FL that's just it. "But humans have to learn the gimmicks", Hunters have to even more. I don't know where are you getting these numbers from because reality presents itself very differently (oh, and the full green bar thing? Sorry, a human just went full turtle on flares, there is little to do there).

I have either to depend on luck or a bad/noob player to win, there is no fairness the way things are, the mechanics are frustrating in it self, all my movesets can be evaded effectively by humans, but the contrary doesn't work.

I don't think anybody deserves a nerf or buff, simply change how mechanics work, it is pathetic and humiliating to a hunter to be one shotted. Curiously I can't DFA volitiles when human but "the ultimate zombie" i can and they are paper thin. 

Again, hunters shouldn't have to run from humans instead they shouldn't be able to get near them.

For instance, what you could do to balance this in a way humans won't be able to kill you so easy.

Humans

  • Remove DFA from humans
  • Flares have less CD (they can throw as much as they want but the time to throw the flare is longer and they have a 4 sec CD between flares)
  • Flares are limited but have a much larger area of effect (Only zaid flares works on NH and you give humans for free on the start and each time they die, this prevents spamming too much)
  • UV Flashlights no longer makes NH vulnerable, instead they drain until it reaches 0 but doesn't go vulnerable (only the flares do that because they emit stronger lights)
  • UV flashlights don't consume as much "stamina" from the start anymore but instead it gradually consumes more NH stamina as long as it keeps him under the light
  • Humans won't/can't move as much when being pounced (preventing 180° pounce block, i can agree with 90° though)
  • DK doesn't do damage to NH anymore
  • Grapple hooks doesn't do damage anymore, instead they stagger the NH.
  • Humans respawn almost instanly when after dying

Night Hunters

  • Once you go vulnerable, you just F'd up, you can't do anything, only jump slightly, the rest continues as it is
  • You have only one UV block and the CD is huge (3-4 mins, doesn't reset after death, it serves as a mean to reduce the F up punishent giving you another try) and it only permits you to use tentacles, nothing else, the amount of CD and UV block stacks scales with the number of players and its duration as well
  • Reduce the distance you can pounce
  • Make sounds NH make less audible (I can hear them from a Fn mile)
  • Much more HP and resilient to all kinds of dmg (headshots can one shot only if it is from a bow or crossbow, all other weapons need 3-4 shots)
  • Spits CDs are much shorter but it's area is shorter (when a hunter succeed in killing a human that is not affected by any spit effect, you shorten a bit of the CDs)
  • Tackles are not animations anymore but can be aimed properly and doesn't need to be running to do them (they can't be dodged anymore if hit, you can dodge like normaly but not with animation or prevent the NH tackle by dropkicking him before he starts his motion as it takes just a ittle to do the tackle) but the damage it does is reduced, on top of all that, if you miss your tackle you stagger, so if you try to tackle carelessly on a human that is on top of a flare, you should aim well or think twice because you will be vulnerable after a miss (your F up).
  • GP doesn't erase the flare completely anymore, it just blows it away to another place (he will still be affected from the flares effect a bit)
  • GP doesn't have the stagger anymore but it just works for humans in your area of view (about 150°, so no GP on the back anymore)
  • GP spit makes the spit type you used be blocked for a certain amount of time (area of effect shortened because of GP area too)
  • You have only one spit timer to all spits and 3 stacks (if you empty all stacks the CD is longer for the first spit, you have to manage the spits well)
  • The nests are a bit more fragile to melee but are resilient to ranged dmg (that counts explosions from granades and whatnot but if its explosions or damage from the scenarios like gas bottle or gasoline barril or even the bricks you find here and there, it is powerful).

I think I covered most of the scenarios that are just plain stupid and/or frustrating, the point of these would be to prevent the possibility of a "survivor" instead of "trying to survive", begins to hunt the hunter. As it is today the catch frase should be "good night, good hunt".

Doesn't mean that I am right, just means that I am not satisfied with how the mechanics work especially on the NH side yet.

I know it would take a little more than a patch to do these kind of changes but i would be glad to pay some money to this promising game. You guys are on the right track, needs a little more polishing i would guess.

Looks like the devs still don't get it post-patch. Would be a miracle if our ideas ever got implemented lol which is not going to happen anytime soon apparently.

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Did give the game mode some hours post patch and don't see why the hunter should be cross eyed.

I've noted quite a few instances where spit trajectory was modified in a way that makes play less live and less direct. And that aspect of the game was a thing that many appreciated: hits, trajectories, and misses DO have consequences (as opposed to many games...). And while the reasons may be based on statistics or smart devs' opinions, anybody playing can see how this is less fun, less balanced, and more frustrating than before; particularly from the perspective of folks playing hunter. Not frustrating in the "delicious challenge- I'm looking forward to overcome this" - kind of way; but frustrating because actions/spits/trajectories are of less consequence and precision is punished. 1v1 is therefore tougher, but so is 1v2-4.

Gp + spit was a tactical combo that made the game's experience richer: In 1v1 it rewarded accurate Ground pounds and in 1v2-4 it represented at least the long shot chance, assuming correct survivor play, of getting a foot in the door and sticking some horde. And yes, this is tactical and a lot of folks are allergic to tactical sequences/combos, berating them as pure spam of players lacking imagination. As if they're coming up with relativity theories or new artistic paradigms while playing.

But everybody with a bit of background in games, strategy, and tactics knows, given asymmetric abilities AND differing number of participants on both sides, that the side playing with less participants must have some way to muddy the waters and make the situation less clear. Accurate Ground pound plus spit was far from perfect achieving this b4 the patch, as there still were enough situations that worked against it, but now it's hard to see how to make the asymmetry fun for a cross eyed hunter that finds themselves a bit more removed from the game. If anything, forced tactical mechanisms such as Ground pound + spit should have been made more potent instead of being reigned in, as only this sort of determinism (as opposed to more randomness say) would make it possible, assuming correct play on all sides, for one high level hunter to make the lives of four high level survivors at least a little bit difficult WHILE maintaining the consistency of a game play with clear, live consequences. That said, these abilities should scale to how many survivors are participating.

And yes, it's good to see that changes are still being made. But personally, as a pure matter of taste: I've always preferred consequences to random goofiness in my game play and continuing these trends makes the game mode less attractive to play as hunter and less satisfying to play as survivor. My two cents which nobody has to buy + if my reasoning is somehow flawed or I'm missing something, please don't hesitate to disagree and show me the way to gaming salvation. :D

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On 6/8/2017 at 5:14 PM, Pete Donnelly said:

OK... It turns out I am not able to fix the "instant tackle" and "instant spit stick" without a full patch :(

The good news is that there is a new tuner released that does make the following changes:

NIGHTHUNTER
  • Increased duration of Sense Suppress Spit
  • Increased damage and duration of Toxic Spit
  • Increased NightHunters energy regen speed while ducking
  • Increased NightHunters knockback impulse from melee attack
  • Reduced Elemental damage on NightHunter
  • Reduced Arrow and Crossbow damage to NightHunter body (BODY:5 hits, HEAD:3 hits)
 
HUMAN
  • Increased Human respawn times in 3v1 and 4v1
  • Gift "Zaid Flares" on respawn in BTZ 
  • Changed Flare cost and cooldown (2 flares thrown within 10 secs will incur a 30 cooldown)
  • Added cooldown to Molotovs 
  • Increased cooldown on Potions
  • Reduced damage from charged melee attacks on nests 
  • Reduced elemental damage on Nests 
  • Added 3 second cooldown to nightsense pulse
 
GENERAL
  • Reduced damage while in PVP paired anim states (NightHunter and Human)

 

After you've had a chance to check it out, let us know your thoughts on the new tuning in the comments below! :)
 

Just wanna say that I enjoyed this zombiefest. The night hunter felt like he should be, a terrifying and clever predator that rules the night. It is humbling to know that you and the team are still working on this game, and are still trying to improve upon the pvp aspect of this game. Now I hear we have future DLC on the way, and I can't wait to see what it will all bring. Personally, I'm hoping that one of the dlc allows you to play as the night hunter outside of pvp. Like a story mode expac for him facing these new enemies coming to the game or an origin story. Or challenge maps that would need you to utilize all your skills as a hunter, hell the ability to be able to free roam with this character would be awesome. The difficulty would depend on our level as the night hunter, as each skill could be utilized in different ways to complete our objective. I understand this might simply be wishful thinking, but I do hope you all at Techland will expand on this character someday. It would be nice to know the backstory of Crane's undead polar opposite.

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Yeah, also heard that Gp + Spit was suddenly judged to be an exploit and indeed, if that's correct a whole range of simultaneous commands would now have to be removed from the game for consistency to be achieved. I don't see it, as fun always beats stats/arguments for me. But the tendency to keep nerfing feels like the game mode is worse than a few patches ago, regardless of which side you prefer to play. Both survivor and hunter are shadows of what they once were and even if the stats or alleged pro players are happy, it makes for more constrained, less fluid, more predictable play that is less fun. 

If a game developer interprets what are essentially first principles of their game as an "exploit", then they run the risk of abandoning what distinguishes their game and makes it special.

I cite from the Wiki and tips of playing Be The Zombie:

http://dyinglight.wikia.com/wiki/Be_The_Zombie

"Be both liberal and conservative about the use of spits. don't just let charged ones sit around doing nothing, but also do not just spit every time a human is within sight; instead wait for an easy shot, like when one is climbing, after a tackle or ground pound, when one is charging you, or while they are distracted with nests/zombies."

This was a main mechanism of the game mode and one of the means of having a chance to split up survivors. Therefore there is larger strategic justification for this tactic, which imho overrules its exploit like character: getting survivors to panic because of horde is part of the essence of the game mode, as well as the mechanism that can turn a game suddenly, and the wiki is correct in listing it as a fundamental means to deliver spit.

To see if something constitutes an exploit, it doesn't suffice to appeal to some authority, dev, or statistic and state: "Well, XYZ said it was an exploit so it must be wrong." That is not an argument. To see if some mechanism, move, or ability grants an unfair advantage relative to some game, it serves to observe what happens given correct play by all sides, in our case: Hunter predicts location of survivor correctly, gets in his ground pound, and sticks him with horde. With correct play, the human will react accordingly: with UV Lamp and 2 handed weapon, he'll see to it that the hunter won't be able to return for a pounce and in the majority of cases secure a safe rooftop. Correct play and successful hits by both sides essentially lead to a drawn outcome. You have to assume the survivor to be a beginner/ignorant if you want to otherwise force this mechanism to be interpreted as an exploit.

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